Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Vintage Paw]

If for argument sake, A group of sis women, natil Women, Want to organise a meeting to discuss issues around abuse, misogyny, things they have experienced. And exclude trans-women and sis man. I think that is okay. That is my bottom line I suppose. Not that I would do it but if I organise the meeting for visually impaired people, blind people to talk about shit. We should be allowed to say sighted people can’t attend.

That is a niche thing sure. Not something to build wider solidarity around of course. But certain issues to pertain to those who have directly experienced them. Sometimes that is necessary. Anyway just thinking aloud, I should go back to lurking.

Trans women experience domestic abuse and misogyny as well. You'd perhaps be surprised by the stats, but there are sadly high rates of domestic abuse and rape, for example, of trans women. Not to mention murder. Some of those things are exacerbated by their trans status, some are just part and parcel of being a woman. I find it very difficult to accept a situation where trans women are routinely excluded from groups and services dedicated to helping in those areas.

 

[Athos]

The opposite of trans is cis though. If instead of natal you use cis then that's what trans people have been doing for decades.

If 'trans' means that gender identity and sex are not aligned, and if 'cis' means 'not trans', then it follows that 'cis' means that gender identity and sex are aligned. But, there's lots of people who don't consider themselves to have a gender identity (this thing that exists independently of sex or socialisation). As such they do not identify as 'cis'. It's arrogant and hypocritical of you to insist on labelling them as 'cis'. Why should people refer to you in your preferred terms when you don't extend that courtesy to others?

 

[19force8]

Oh yes, I can well imagine in 3 decades or so you calling me "cisrace" too when some decide white is not quite "me" either. It's only a matter of time after all.

Didn't we go over the whole transrace thing on another thread? Or was it this one? Maybe we should just stick with the Latin.

 

[bimble]

Tomorrow.. a call for uncritical support (particularly from biological women) outside the court where the incident at beginning of this thread is going to be heard. Rally round to defend the person accused of assault from the violence of the terfs..Is this really a good idea?

 

[Sea Star]

If for argument sake, A group of sis women, natil Women, Want to organise a meeting to discuss issues around abuse, misogyny, things they have experienced. And exclude trans-women and sis man. I think that is okay. That is my bottom line I suppose. Not that I would do it but if I organise the meeting for visually impaired people, blind people to talk about shit. We should be allowed to say sighted people can’t attend.

That is a niche thing sure. Not something to build wider solidarity around of course. But certain issues to pertain to those who have directly experienced them. Sometimes that is necessary. Anyway just thinking aloud, I should go back to lurking.

What makes you think trans women don't experience the same abuse and misogyny that cis women experience?

 

[JimW]

The British judiciary traditionally delighted to have masked up crowds of citizens outside the court.

 

[Pickman's model]

What makes you think trans women don't experience the same abuse and misogyny that cis women experience?

I'd have thought it would be different

 

[19force8]

I'd have thought it would be different

But then isn't everybody's?

 

[Athos]

Trans women experience domestic abuse and misogyny as well. You'd perhaps be surprised by the stats, but there are sadly high rates of domestic abuse and rape, for example, of trans women. Not to mention murder. Some of those things are exacerbated by their trans status, some are just part and parcel of being a woman. I find it very difficult to accept a situation where trans women are routinely excluded from groups and services dedicated to helping in those areas.

Two points:

First, by that logic, why exclude men (trans and non-trans) from 'women's' shelters, given they experience domestic and sexual abuse?

Secondly, a related point. Personally, I favour trans inclusion into e.g. shelters, on pragmatic grounds; the alternative would be to deny trans women much needed support. But that's a slightly different question to the one of principle. What if there were sufficient shelters for all people to receive the support they need, without being housed together? If non-trans men could be supported away from trans women, and non-trans women could be supported away from all natal males? Would you favour separation? Or (presumably only in the case of trans and non-trans women) would you still favour mixing, notwithstanding any distress it might cause non- trans women who've been the victims of male abuse. Because, in that instance, inclusion would not be based upon trans women's right to support as victims of abuse, but upon a prioritisation of trans women's desire to have their belief about their gender validated over the distress of vulnerable non-trans women.

 

[Pickman's model]

But then isn't everybody's?

Yeh I doubt I get the same abuse you or sea star might

 

[Pickman's model]

Tomorrow.. a call for uncritical support (particularly from biological women) outside the court where the incident at beginning of this thread is going to be heard. Rally round to defend the person accused of assault from the violence of the terfs..Is this really a good idea?
View attachment 127400 View attachment 127401

Many years ago a mate was up at clerkenwell magistrates. He was very clear that anyone who turned up to support him look smart as to turn up unshaven or grufty could easily count against him. I wonder that this lot suggest turning up masked up might be a good idea, and a message I take from the leaflet is it would not be bad if you turned up ready to turn the transphobic scum over.

 

[bimble]

Well yeah its basically a demo standing up for the right to punch terfs isn't it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well yeah its basically a demo standing up for the right to punch terfs isn't it.

And what a good idea to have it outside a magistrates court in the government security zone

 

[Sea Star]

I'd have thought it would be different

Can you explain why?

And then wouldn't that also be an argument for excluding women of colour and gay women, disabled women?

If not, why not?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you explain why?

And then wouldn't that also be an argument for excluding women of colour and gay women, disabled women?

If not, why not?

Yes, yes I can.

 

[weepiper]

On transgender women competing in women's sports:

UCI reviews policy on transgender cyclists after Canadian athlete wins human rights case

Transgender cyclist is first female finisher at Arizona race

https://www.floelite.com/articles/5...ter-laurel-hubbard-sets-masters-world-records

Natalie van Gogh wins first stage


Transgender sprinter, born male, wins two girls state titles

It's not a minor issue.

 

[MochaSoul]

Didn't we go over the whole transrace thing on another thread? Or was it this one? Maybe we should just stick with the Latin.

Oh I was there too. At the time I had no idea what "cis" was. I've read too much in the last few weeks. Still peaktransing. Genderology is one of the gifts that keeps on giving.

 

[smokedout]

Two points:

First, by that logic, why exclude men (trans and non-trans) from 'women's' shelters, given they experience domestic and sexual abuse?

Secondly, a related point. Personally, I favour trans inclusion into e.g. shelters, on pragmatic grounds; the alternative would be to deny trans women much needed support. But that's a slightly different question to the one of principle. What if there were sufficient shelters for all people to receive the support they need, without being housed together? If non-trans men could be supported away from trans women, and non-trans women could be supported away from all natal males? Would you favour separation? Or (presumably only in the case of trans and non-trans women) would you still favour mixing, notwithstanding any distress it might cause non- trans women who've been the victims of male abuse. Because, in that instance, inclusion would not be based upon trans women's right to support as victims of abuse, but upon a prioritisation of trans women's desire to have their belief about their gender validated over the distress of vulnerable non-trans women.

To even suggest that someone so terrified of violence they would leave their homes and go live in a house full of strangers at a secret address would be in the slightest bit motivated by validating their gender identity once again reveals what underlies your pretend support for trans people.

 

[MochaSoul]

Tomorrow.. a call for uncritical support (particularly from biological women) outside the court where the incident at beginning of this thread is going to be heard. Rally round to defend the person accused of assault from the violence of the terfs..Is this really a good idea?
View attachment 127400 View attachment 127401

They tried to find where the Bristol Woman's Place meeting was to intimidate women out of attending too. Failed but not sure how long they can keep on failing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can’t reasonably discuss trans women in elite sport without first taking into account the bigger issue of attempts to police sex in sports in ways that victimize women with intersex conditions. Elite sport is to a very large extent the preserve of people with advantages from unusual physiologies. For essentially cultural reasons, sports bodies have on the one hand celebrated many women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes and on the other humiliated and persecuted women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes that are associated with various intersex conditions. Elite sport is the arena where attempts to impose a neat binary onto biological sex most obviously and quickly collide with a messier reality and the results to date have been cruel in the extreme.

I agree with you about the cruel treatment of intersex athletes, the fact of the intrusive medical procedures being made public being one of the worst of them. But it is also an arena in which there is a need to gender-police. For women's competition to be meaningful, there is a need for an agreed definition of a female athlete that goes beyond self-identification. I don't think we can pretend that there are easy solutions. There aren't.

 

[8ball]

Less rare than trans people.

Really?

 

[MochaSoul]

To even suggest that someone so terrified of violence they would leave their homes and go live in a house full of strangers at a secret address would be in the slightest bit motivated by validating their gender identity once again reveals what underlies your pretend support for trans people.

I was sceptical of "validation" arguments until the AWS thing exploded. If it weren't about validation you'd try to get their own trans shortlists in the LP. It would add a non-sexist veneer to see trans men thought of. Looking at the whole phenomenon as a whole it's hard not to think of it as an invasion of all women's spaces and an undermining of women's representation as well as social studies re women's material realities which are heavily reliant on sex (not gender) stats.

As it is one has to wonder.

 

[elbows]

Really?

Just one of many starting points to exploring data on this:

How Common is Intersex? An Explanation of the Stats. – Intersex Campaign for Equality

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On transgender women competing in women's sports:

UCI reviews policy on transgender cyclists after Canadian athlete wins human rights case

Transgender cyclist is first female finisher at Arizona race

https://www.floelite.com/articles/5...ter-laurel-hubbard-sets-masters-world-records

Natalie van Gogh wins first stage


Transgender sprinter, born male, wins two girls state titles

It's not a minor issue.

The case of Laurel Hubbard presents something of a problem, imo. Competing as a man until age 35 at national level, now transitioned and competing as a woman and winning medals at world level four years later, something she was not close to doing as a man. She's jumped in class regarding results post-transition. If someone who hadn't transitioned suddenly jumped in class late in their career, people would be strongly suspecting them of doping.

I also find it odd how trans women are prevented from entering men's cycling competitions. Why not let any woman, trans or cis, enter men's cycling competitions if they want to?

 

[8ball]

Just one of many starting points to exploring data on this:

How Common is Intersex? An Explanation of the Stats. – Intersex Campaign for Equality

Unless you include late onset adrenal hyperplasia (which I think would be spurious), I think the transgender estimate of 0.3% is an order of magnitude higher than intersex, at least.
That link includes plenty of things that wouldn't be considered intersex conditions too (non-binary somatic chromosomal dimorphism etc.).

Ropey stuff to include on a non-academic level.

The corrective genital surgery figures quoted there are a better guide imo, and still that includes various developmental glitches.

If this attempt to remove the concept of biological sex is part of any pro trans rights agenda, it seems very misguided.

 

[8ball]

The case of Laurel Hubbard presents something of a problem, imo. Competing as a man until age 35 at national level, now transitioned and competing as a woman and winning medals at world level four years later, something she was not close to doing as a man. She's jumped in class regarding results post-transition. If someone who hadn't transitioned suddenly jumped in class late in their career, people would be strongly suspecting them of doping.

Well, one thing people dope with is testosterone...

 

[8ball]

I also find it odd how trans women are prevented from entering men's cycling competitions. Why not let any woman, trans or cis, enter men's cycling competitions if they want to?

Or vice versa. Or just everyone have a race and see who’s fastest?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, one thing people dope with is testosterone...

Even if her testosterone levels are now low, she spent 20+ years training and building her body with far higher levels, levels that would have seen her banned from women's competition for doping. Is that irrelevant to her performance today? Those who say that it's fine for her to compete in women's competitions say yes, it is irrelevant. I don't see how it can be in power events where competitors have bodies that have been built through many years of hard training.

Conservative shitwomble as she might be, the Brazilian athlete Mocha Soul quoted makes a valid point regarding that imo. If an athlete is done for doping through tests done on samples from 5 or 10 years ago, she's banned, but a trans woman athlete didn't need to dope pre-transition - her body was doping her up naturally. She wasn't reborn when she transitioned - she brings with her the legacy of her pre-transition training. The idea that these years of training are not relevant just one year later is fanciful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or vice versa. Or just everyone have a race and see who’s fastest?

It doesn't work the other way round, clearly.

Everyone race and see who's fastest means no women doing well in any top race ever. Hence the need for women-only competitions and the need for some set of rules to decide who qualifies for those races.

 

[smokedout]

I was sceptical of "validation" arguments until the AWS thing exploded. If it weren't about validation you'd try to get their own trans shortlists in the LP. It would add a non-sexist veneer to see trans men thought of. Looking at the whole phenomenon as a whole it's hard not to think of it as an invasion of all women's spaces and an undermining of women's representation as well as social studies re women's material realities which are heavily reliant on sex (not gender) stats.

As it is one has to wonder.

Firstly there's a big difference between a woman only shortlist and someone fleeing a violent partner. Whilst I don't think anyone would go on a woman only shortlst to validate there gender either to suggest someone escaping from domestic violence might is really pretty nasty.

But realistically how many people would end up on a trans shortlist in the Labour Party? Probably so few that just being trans would be enough to get someone selected. To narrow a pool down to less than 1% of the population doesn't strike me as a great strategy for selecting parliamentry candidates. And until women make up 50% of Labour MPs and candidates then wouldn't this just start a new row about trans shortlists being used in places where women's shortlists might have been used?

This is just like the 'why not set up your own trans refuges like women did' argument. Fine in theory, completely unworkable and in many cases impossble in practice.