Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Nigel Irritable]

Funnily enough, Nigel,
1. I had already noticed she was rw I even mentioned she never gave a fig about feminism not long after I posted her link;
2. Another funny thing is that one of her latest blog posts is called "Biology is neither lw nor rw." - I haven't yet read it but you're a good reason why I don't have to wonder why she wrote it;
3rd funny thing is that you continue to think and act as if hurling labels were enough to challenge others arguments;
4. I never said trans people messed with her sport. I said MRAs had and I was quite deliberate about that. Funny how you missed that too - misrepresentation is a great thing for you isn't it?

Funny how funny you are!

You deliberately misrepresented her as an apolitical athlete who wasn’t even interested in feminism until “MRAs”, by which you meant trans people or trans rights supporters, “messed with her passion”. In fact, as you were well aware, she has a long term interest in feminism in that she hates it. And far from being just some random athlete, her continued prominence after her athletic career is due to her role as a right wing social conservative activist. Her intervention is right wing culture wars shit and you are doing your best to amplify it.

It’s not surprising that you approve of her views. Social conservatives are the people your movement hopes will do the heavy lifting in their bigoted crusade and you misrepresented who she is because you are deeply dishonest. That you approved firstly of her letter, which talks about the unique glories of “Western civilization” and boasts about the invasive methods used to persecute women with intersex conditions out of athletic competition and then later of her claims that this issue is neither left nor right just makes your nasty agenda clearer. You will cheer on any arsehole as long as they express anti trans views and you will lie to make them seem less noxious when it suits you.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Anti-trans feminists use MRA as a slur towards trans people and those who support them all the time. 'Handmaiden' is another that gets thrown around.

 

[MochaSoul]

You deliberately misrepresented her as an apolitical athlete who wasn’t even interested in feminism until “MRAs”, by which you meant trans people or trans rights supporters, “messed with her passion”. In fact, as you were well aware, she has a long term interest in feminism in that she hates it. And far from being just some random athlete, her continued prominence after her athletic career is due to her role as a right wing social conservative activist.

You approve of her views because social conservatives are the people you hope will do the heavy lifting in your bigoted crusade and you misrepresented who she is because you are deeply dishonest. That you approved firstly of her letter, which talks about the unique glories of “Western civilization” and approves of the invasive methods used to persecute women with intersex conditions out of athletic competition and then later of her claims that this issue is neither left nor right just makes your nasty agenda clearer. You will cheer on any arsehole as long as they express anti trans bigotry and you will lie to make them seem less noxious when it suits you.

There is a big difference between trans people, TRAs and MRAs do you know or care?

Do you have an argument against her position on transwomen in women's sports?

 

[MochaSoul]

Anti-trans feminists use MRA as a slur towards trans people and those who support them all the time. 'Handmaiden' is another that gets thrown around.

Of course we do. I did that to myself until only this December.

 

[Sea Star]

Anti-trans feminists use MRA as a slur towards trans people and those who support them all the time. 'Handmaiden' is another that gets thrown around.

And being told I'm a misogynist (and all the rest, homophobe, fantasist, pervert, etc) off the bat, before I've even managed to say anything. I did try, for ages, to have the discussion they claim they want to have but after months of that shit I had to close myself to it. Then they say we refuse to talk about it. Yeah, wonder why.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

There is a big difference between trans people, TRAs and MRAs do you know or care?

Do you have an argument against her position on transwomen in women's sports?

Like most other people in this thread I am well aware that TERFs use “MRA” as an insult for trans women and their supporters, which is exactly what you were doing. Further displays of obvious dishonesty in an exchange where you were just caught lying don’t do your bigoted cause much good you know.

I’m not at all interested in the culture wars polemics of Brazilian conservatives, nor in their bigotry. She’s just another example of the kind of allies TERFs are looking to make and your attempts to hide her wider views are just another example of the dishonesty they habitually engage in. That you are willing to endorse a letter supporting the ongoing persecution of women athletes with intersex conditions is not in itself a surprise.

 

[8ball]

There’s no such thing in a simple sense as a female or male brain. There is such a thing in a fairly simple sense as a male or female body.

If that wasn’t so there would be no sense to the word ‘trans’, or to the concept of ‘transitioning’.

Surely we agree on that, at least.

 

[elbows]

There is such a thing in a fairly simple sense as a male or female body.

There are simple views of it that work some of the time for some people, but like everything else, sufficient attention reveals a more nuanced picture.

I dont remember what exactly I was reading when something along these lines came up in the thread about three weeks ago, or even what I was responding to, but I did say the following then.

Even with present relatively poor levels of understanding about the deep detail of many aspects, science already has a way of dealing with the simple fact that chromosomal, gonadal and somatic sex do not always agree in an individual. At least thats how branches of science that have split things into chromosomal, gonadal and somatic sex would talk about that stuff.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

By the way, a number of trans men have competed at a high level in men’s sports. There’s one on the Harvard collegiate men’s swim team and another on the US national duathlon team for example. Endurance sports are the ones where male athletes have the smallest typical advantage (and the more extreme the endurance required the less the advantage), so it’s not that surprising that trans men would be more likely to feature in such events.

It’s also worth noting that requiring trans men to compete in women’s events is itself enormously problematic even ignoring issues of social justice and focusing only on performance differentials. The Texas state girls high school wrestling champion last year was a trans man who campaigned to be allowed to compete in the boys championship instead. They made him compete in the girls division where his hormones gave him a much bigger advantage than a trans woman would likely have.

 

[xenon]

Can we not say there are women. And within that there are trans-women and natal women. And within that different issues pertane.

 

[Sea Star]

It’s also worth noting that requiring trans men to compete in women’s events is itself enormously problematic even ignoring issues of social justice and focusing only on performance differentials. The Texas state girls high school wrestling champion last year was a trans man who campaigned to be allowed to compete in the boys championship instead. They made him compete in the girls division where his hormones gave him a much bigger advantage than a trans woman would likely have.

That was funny - the number of US conservatives who tweeted that at me, mistakenly believing that the man involved was actually a trans woman was unbelievable. An inevitable consequence of the TERFs campaign of deliberately confusing people by referring to trans women as "transgender men" and the media not having a fucking clue. They were using an example that actually undermined their argument and they didn't even know it

 

[Sea Star]

Can we not say there are women. And within that there are trans-women and natal women. And within that different issues pertane.

The opposite of trans is cis though. If instead of natal you use cis then that's what trans people have been doing for decades.

 

[Sea Star]

Oh, might as well mention, one of the higher profile TERFs on Twitter last week was complaining that a man tried to stop her using the ladies toilet because she looks a bit boyish

Karma, or something!!!

 

[xenon]

There are simple views of it that work some of the time for some people, but like everything else, sufficient attention reveals a more nuanced picture.

I dont remember what exactly I was reading when something along these lines came up in the thread about three weeks ago, or even what I was responding to, but I did say the following then.

Sorry, this is just waffle. On average natel women and men are biologically different. This isn’t necessary to argue against to accept, recognise if you will, trans-women are women.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s also worth noting that requiring trans men to compete in women’s events is itself enormously problematic even ignoring issues of social justice and focusing only on performance differentials. The Texas state girls high school wrestling champion last year was a trans man who campaigned to be allowed to compete in the boys championship instead. They made him compete in the girls division where his hormones gave him a much bigger advantage than a trans woman would likely have.

There is a very strong case for requiring trans men to compete in men's competitions. They are likely to be taking various things that would have them thrown out of women's competitions as drugs cheats.

That case doesn't extend to trans women, though.

 

[xenon]

The opposite of trans is cis though. If instead of natal you use cis then that's what trans people have been doing for decades.

Yeah sure. I think I said on the other thread. I don’t have a problem with being referred to as a cis male. I think other people do because it confers upon them they are experience a comfortableness with their gender, which they do not subscribe to.

I’m not entirely sure I am human no joke by the way. But I am personally happy with cis meaning I am not trans-. I just have issues beyond the realm of gender. ..

 

[Sea Star]

Yeah sure. I think I said on the other thread. I don’t have a problem with being referred to as a cis nale. I think other people do because it confers upon them are comfortablebess with their gender, which they do not subscribe to.
..

Well, they're wrong if they think it does that. It means not trans. That's all it means. If you can't use "cis" then please use "not trans" even if it does sound incredibly clumsy.

 

[8ball]

There are simple views of it that work some of the time for some people, but like everything else, sufficient attention reveals a more nuanced picture.

There are simple views that work *almost all of the time*.

 

[elbows]

Sorry, this is just waffle. On average natel women and men are biologically different. This isn’t necessary to argue against to accept, recognise if you will, trans-women are women.

I will accept a general charge of being a waffler overall in my posts. But I do not take kindly to matters that are of relevance to, for example, scientific understanding in relation to intersex stuff, being dismissed as waffle, outliers, an irrelevant awkward detail. Far from it.

 

[Sea Star]

Can we not say there are women. And within that there are trans-women and natal women. And within that different issues pertane.

Also, missed the other bit of your post. Some differences, lots of similarities. Same with any group individuals. Trans women, as we are women, and most of us are feminists, and proud to be women, will work to further the cause of all women regardless whether trans or cis. So the idea that the tiny number of us who happen to be trans should be forced to identify as men and be excluded from women's spaces and women's politics is both self defeating and bizarre. Also, serves no purpose other than that of furthering hatred and othering of trans women.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

There is a very strong case for requiring trans men to compete in men's competitions. They are likely to be taking various things that would have them thrown out of women's competitions as drugs cheats.

That case doesn't extend to trans women, though.

You can’t reasonably discuss trans women in elite sport without first taking into account the bigger issue of attempts to police sex in sports in ways that victimize women with intersex conditions. Elite sport is to a very large extent the preserve of people with advantages from unusual physiologies. For essentially cultural reasons, sports bodies have on the one hand celebrated many women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes and on the other humiliated and persecuted women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes that are associated with various intersex conditions. Elite sport is the arena where attempts to impose a neat binary onto biological sex most obviously and quickly collide with a messier reality and the results to date have been cruel in the extreme.

 

[xenon]

I will accept a general charge of being a waffler overall in my posts. But I do not take kindly to matters that are of relevance to, for example, scientific understanding in relation to intersex stuff, being dismissed as waffle, outliers, an irrelevant awkward detail. Far from it.

Intersex people are a rarity.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Intersex people are a rarity.

Less rare than trans people.

 

[Sea Star]

Intersex people are a rarity.

Trans people are a rarity

 

[elbows]

Without even beginning to attempt to do the whole subject justice, I have an additional interest in scientific and medical areas related to intersex conditions because it does sound like we have reached a point where some of the previous generation of relatively crude genetic understanding is being replaced with something more nuanced as capabilities improve. eg going from the old, basic XY chromosomal stuff, to individual gene expression. And probably some more sophisticated developments on other fronts which I know even less about. I will be quite surprised if, after several more decades of discovery on these fronts, the picture ends up as simple, and I will also be surprised if there turn out to be no implications at all for how 'the masses' think of themselves in terms of sex.

I was just searching the web for random papers to see if I could find whatever it was I was reading weeks ago and I could not, but I found something about changes to intersex classification systems that seemed quite interesting and raised a number of points that I might be able to tie in to this thread.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

In this article, I investigate how sex chromosome variations have been defined differently at different times. I focus on their inclusion in or exclusion from classifications of intersex and the practical implications for individuals with these variations. Turner syndrome was first described in 1938 and Klinefelter’s syndrome in 1942. Initially, these syndromes were descriptions of an association of symptoms in an individual body. As karyotype possibilities beyond XX or XY were described in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and as human medical genetics was being transformed ‘from a medical backwater to an appealing medical research frontier between 1955 and 1975’ (Lindee, 2005: 1), these syndromes became genetic ‘sex-reversals’ with doubt also cast upon gender and sexuality. While current conventional understandings of genetics are likely to focus at a smaller level than the chromosome (the recent DSD classification system goes beyond karyotype to consider the role of individual genes), during this historical period the karyotype was synonymous with ‘genetic sex’.

As Mol (2002: 5) argues, bodies, scientific knowledges, technologies and classifications are always multiple, coming into being or ‘enacted’, along with the practices with which they are described. Mol prefers ‘enact’ over the perhaps more familiar metaphor of performance, to avoid associations with ideas of a ‘real reality’ somewhere ‘backstage’, as well as ideas of a difficult accomplishment, or associations with performative effects beyond the moment (p. 32). Enacting ‘suggests that activities take place – but leaves the actors vague’, and it is possible to say that ‘in the act, and only then and there, something is – being enacted’ (p. 33, emphasis in original). Objects (including bodies and classification systems) are enacted in specific local practices, and thus become ‘heavy with meaning’, a meaning that has been attributed. Such attributions have a history, and they are culturally specific, opening them up for historical and social scientific investigation’ (p. 10).

I do not wish to argue that there is a ‘truth’ of either Turner or Klinefelter’s syndromes that different classification systems approach, but rather that classification systems are historically and culturally situated, enact sex chromosomes and bodies in different ways, and are thus open to critical investigation. I follow Roberts’s (2007) work on ‘sex hormones’ to offer an analysis of the sexed body through the history of sex chromosome variations, as part of the reconstructive work of feminist technoscience studies. As she argues, this is one of the key ‘roles’ of feminist work – to critically analyse biological and scientific frameworks but also to develop and construct new concepts and frameworks for understanding the biological and the social (Roberts, 2007: 23).

I want to know more about these feminist technoscience studies.

 

[xenon]

Also, missed the other bit of your post. Some differences, lots of similarities. Same with any group individuals. Trans women, as we are women, and most of us are feminists, and proud to be women, will work to further the cause of all women regardless whether trans or cis. So the idea that the tiny number of us who happen to be trans should be forced to identify as men and be excluded from women's spaces and women's politics is both self defeating and bizarre. Also, serves no purpose other than that of furthering hatred and othering of trans women.

Sure, I don’t have an argument with that. But there are, will be tensions at the edge cases. As in refuges, sport. Toilets okay let’s have cubicles, unisex, Toilets for everyone. We do at work. It is not a problem.

 

[Sea Star]

Also, I'll point out here, there are intersex people who also identity as trans. Too often I see people seeing intersex people is against trans people but there is a significant overlap between the two

Sure, I don’t have an argument with that. But there are, will be tensions at the edge cases. As in refuges, sport. Toilets okay let’s have cubicles, unisex, Toilets for everyone. We do at work. It is not a problem.

I've never had any problem in toilets. I know trans women that have been in refuges, one that works in one. There's no problem apart from a few outside agitators

I'm not getting involved in the sports argument though as I know nothing about sport, and don't even like it, but I have seen a lot of scare mongering about it, and yet women's sport seems oddly bereft of hordes of trans women winning everything.

And also I know quite a few trans women who take part in sport and are completely supported by the women they compete with so I think the problems are largely over blown. Wonder why?

 

[elbows]

Theres quite a lot of stuff in that article about how badly the new classification system went down with some intersex activists, and it sounds like the author wanted to do the issues related to this stuff justice. But it is late and its a rather heavy academic piece so I will probably take another look at it tomorrow and try to find some lighter sources of info on that topic.

 

[xenon]

If for argument sake, A group of sis women, natil Women, Want to organise a meeting to discuss issues around abuse, misogyny, things they have experienced. And exclude trans-women and sis man. I think that is okay. That is my bottom line I suppose. Not that I would do it but if I organise the meeting for visually impaired people, blind people to talk about shit. We should be allowed to say sighted people can’t attend.

That is a niche thing sure. Not something to build wider solidarity around of course. But certain issues to pertain to those who have directly experienced them. Sometimes that is necessary. Anyway just thinking aloud, I should go back to lurking.

 

[MochaSoul]

The opposite of trans is cis though. If instead of natal you use cis then that's what trans people have been doing for decades.

Oh yes, I can well imagine in 3 decades or so you calling me "cisrace" too when some decide white is not quite "me" either. It's only a matter of time after all.
Central Delaware NAACP opposed to Regulation 225 - Delaware State News