Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[MochaSoul]

Where do you get a year from? Says here she began transition in 2012.

My point was not about the athlete in question. My point was about the IOC rules which do state low level testosterone for one year. Henkel wrote an open letter to the IOC about it. Sorry it's in Portuguese and I can't find a translation nor do I have the time to do it myself. She exposes the whole fraudulent scheme and how she feels the rsponsibility of speaking out knowing current players won't dare to raise it themselves.
Subsequent questions of hers have been where and when do women become men and men become women to answer Pick's earlier question.
All very good TERFy questions by someone who hadn't given a fig about feminism until a bunch of MRAs messed with her passion.

Plenty of women rising around the world which, bearing the abuse they get for it, should tell anyone something's up. But nooooo.... men are women now when they choose and the women who claim to be men are even more invisible than the rest of us.
I mean... in a country like Britain, women themselves proclaiming in public that others are wrong and biology doesn't matter at the same time as other women try to raise issues like period poverty rising in the same country. It has to take a heavy dosage of men centered feminism to read that "children **trade** sex" with adult "humanitarians" in disastrous zones and say, not much about it either.

 

[Pickman's model]

That doesn't really work. The reason biological men have a higher top limit of physical performance than biological women is very precisely because they have a manly physique and a manly physiology. There is an obvious problem when mtf trans athletes switch from men's competitions to women's competitions. (It's the reason why sports are exempted from many of the provisions of the current gender recognition act here in the UK.)

so what you're saying is the reason 'biological men' have a higher top limit of physical performance is because they are men. nice teleology.

 

[pengaleng]

dont yous ever get bored of discussing other people?

 

[bimble]

I thought the whole sexual dimorphism thing was more or less bollocks that differences were negligible

Yes, that's right, women are just lazy that's why we run 10-20% slower than men whether its sprint or long distance

 

[Pickman's model]

My point was not about the athlete in question. My point was about the IOC rules which do state low level testosterone for one year.<snip>

this would be why you've highlighted the ioc rules as opposed to this particular athlete.

 

[Pickman's model]

dont yous ever get bored of discussing other people?

not really, no

 

[pengaleng]

not really, no

all carry on with yer virtue signalling then

 

[Pickman's model]

all carry on with yer virtue signalling then

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

That's clearly not the only change. Another change would be to expand the group of people who could get a GRC i.e. to any male who (for whatever purpose) claims to be a woman, but who wouldn't meet the current criteria.

So what we have are fears that there will be a fuck ton of applications after the reforms.

It can stay as it is, a GRC would be evidence of gender transition, but the exemption, which permits discrimination in some circumstances, would remain. So in most cases someone could not be discriminated against at work or in provision of services, if they had a gender recognition certificate unless those services felt discrimination was necessary to meet a 'proportionate aim', such as a women only refuge.

I think they *should* change it though when the reforms come in so they both say the same thing -I think Miranda was talking sense there, because in a court room they are pedantic as fuck right?

 

[MochaSoul]

this would be why you've highlighted the ioc rules as opposed to this particular athlete.

.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

But aye, with the women's aid stuff that's obviously down to them to work out what their policy is and reforms not really relevant. It sounds like I am arguing because I am not succinct

 

[Pickman's model]

.

My point was not about the athlete in question. My point was about the IOC rules

this is your only mention of the ioc ever. you seem to me to be bringing it up now as something of a figleaf. if your point really was about the ioc you yould have said it before.

 

[MochaSoul]

you seem to me to be bringing it up now as something of a figleaf.

.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

ah the cut and thrust of debate on urban

 

[MochaSoul]

ah the cut and thrust of debate on urban

.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

..-. ..-

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you have anything to say about the content of the article? 'Cos the fact it's in **The Spectator** alone (regardless of what the author is, says about himself or is said about) already told me it wasn't being published without ulterior motives.

Better than that... Disregard those articles what do you have to say about what the four times Olympic champion woman athlete has to say about trans inclusion in women's sports at the end of this?

this is where you should have mentioned the ioc

but you didn't. so you can see why i don't believe your point really about the ioc rules, being as they're not even referenced in the article.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I thought the whole sexual dimorphism thing was more or less bollocks that differences were negligible

Very obviously not bollocks.

In this case, the athlete concerned said:

“I say to other transgender athletes that they need to work hard because as long as their harmonization is correct, the rules are on their side,” said Abreu. “They have the right to be happy, too.”

But this isn't about happiness. That seems to miss the point. It's about sporting fairness.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I didn't realise we were on athletes now. IF YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ABOUT TRANSGENDER ATHLETES THEN YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!

 

[MochaSoul]

this is where you should have mentioned the ioc

but you didn't. so you can see why i don't believe your point really about the ioc rules, being as they're not even referenced in the article.

Henkel herself did

at the end of this?

"We have already applauded the **IOC** and its policies for pure sport without fraud, now women who have long adhered to the same anti-doping rules that have come clean from countless tests since they were 16, 17, help a biological man break their records. "

You're just picking for sport. I don't have to go along with you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Henkel herself did

.

You're just picking for sport. I don't have to go along with you.

no indeed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I didn't realise we were on athletes now. IF YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ABOUT TRANSGENDER ATHLETES THEN YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!

It's not a question of being angry, is it? I think it's a very unfortunate situation that doesn't necessarily have a good answer. One answer that doesn't really work is to say there's no problem.

 

[MochaSoul]

.

no indeed.

... and which part of "what do you think of what SHE had to say about it" do you have trouble with? Did I reference any other part of the article?

 

[Pickman's model]

... and which part of "what do you think what SHE had to say about it" do you have trouble with? Did I reference any other part of the article?

'what do you think what SHE had to say about it' is a word short of a question.

 

[smokedout]

It's not a question of being angry, is it? I think it's a very unfortunate situation that doesn't necessarily have a good answer. One answer that doesn't really work is to say there's no problem.

Looking at the evidence such as it is might be a good starting point:

The NCAA instituted somewhat less stringent guidelines in 2011. They do not require surgery, and they require only one year on testosterone suppression for male-to-female transgender athletes. The conclusions of the consulting medical experts on the NCAA policy were unambiguous:

It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence.

In an interview regarding transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, Dr. Marci Bowers explains why there is no effective competitive advantage in being a transgender woman:

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

In the same interview, Dr. Sherman Leis concurred in all respects.

Indeed, given that women get 25 percent of their circulating testosterone from their ovaries, post-operative transgender women typically have less testosterone than their counterparts. Fox noted, “Any of the women I’m competing against, my testosterone levels are drastically lower than theirs; it’s almost nothing.”

Dr. Bowers agreed: “When you test her, she’s going to come out with low testosterone levels and muscle mass that is remarkably similar to her counterparts.” These observations were borne out in Fallon Fox’s first defeat at the hands of Ashlee Evans-Smith, where Fox’s muscle fatigue in later rounds gave Smith an advantage. After the fight, Smith observed, “I won because I hit harder, grappled better, had better ground techniques, cardio and leg strength.”

 

[MochaSoul]

LOL

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

It's not a question of being angry, is it? I think it's a very unfortunate situation that doesn't necessarily have a good answer. One answer that doesn't really work is to say there's no problem.

This is a near 300 page thread where certain posters keep turning up with the most sensationalist bit of news they can find to prove their point - not entirely sure what it is other than TRANS PEOPLE R MAKING ME SO UPSET RIGHT NOW.If even just one of them would respectfully engage in the debate and not just sit on the thread until they can find yet another thing to wind up trans posters with, maybe you could take them seriously. Even the educated feminist as fuck weepiper dropped in with some tabloid nonsense about Ian Huntley having a sex change
It's nuts, so no I don't much feel like shedding a tear over this "very unfortunate situation"

 

[Horus Snacks]

Very obviously not bollocks.

In this case, the athlete concerned said:



But this isn't about happiness. That seems to miss the point. It's about sporting fairness.

what is the stupid little face for? Can't you people ever just respond without the attitude? I made a point in good faith, and yet hwere we go again. FFS. EIther respond or don't, leave the shitty patronising bollocks at home.

 

[maomao]

EIther respond or don't,

It would be really wise if everyone didn't btw. This is Awesome Wells / Biscuitician /etc. etc. and he feeds on dragging threads into really nasty hateful places. Hopefully he'll be banned again soon.

 

[Pickman's model]

what is the stupid little face for? Can't you people ever just respond without the attitude? I made a point in good faith, and yet hwere we go again. FFS. EIther respond or don't, leave the shitty patronising bollocks at home.

all you have is shitty patronising bollocks.