Trans Day Of Visibility

[Sea Star]

My role models have always been women who are strong and gender non conforming. I always hoped I could be like Chrissie Hynde or Patti Smith, rather than, say Debbie Harry or Madonna.
But when it comes to presenting as masculine as that what happens is we just turn back into being perceived as men.
I spent a year as a man dressing in female but masculine looking clothes and I wasn't happy until I was identified as a woman and more and more as I moved more to the feminine I started to be identified and treated as I wanted to be. And my dysphoria lessened.
I quickly found I didn't like being over feminine. I preferred plain jackets, especially leather and denim, and very plain tee shirt tops.
I think I reached my own personal tipping point when I was ill once and had to get to a & e - all I could cope with was jeans, tee shirt and no make up. Basically what I'd have worn as a bloke. And I found out I still passed as female. And apart from days when I am lacking in confidence my best days are those days when I put on jeans and tee shirt and just be me. But I couldn't even begin to go there until I felt established as female.
And also I live in the gender binary world. I work in a place with a dress code. I have a boyfriend who likes me looking feminine and because I love him I do the best I can to please him and myself as much as possible.
Also there is still an element of because I can. Because I can put on a long pink skirt and a strappy top and go into town, sometimes I do. I'm sure in time this need will fade, I will feel more secure in my relationship and I will become the woman I was always meant to be.

 

[Sea Star]

Also on the subject of trans people reinforcing the gender binary - I've always though it laughable because firstly.most trans people probably do not fit easily and firmly into male and female and secondly, we were invisible till a few years ago and the gender binary has been around for a long long time before we could have exerted any influence at all, even assuming we have any influence now.

 

[Vintage Paw]

My role models have always been women who are strong and gender non conforming. I always hoped I could be like Chrissie Hynde or Patti Smith, rather than, say Debbie Harry or Madonna.
But when it comes to presenting as masculine as that what happens is we just turn back into being perceived as men.
I spent a year as a man dressing in female but masculine looking clothes and I wasn't happy until I was identified as a woman and more and more as I moved more to the feminine I started to be identified and treated as I wanted to be. And my dysphoria lessened.
I quickly found I didn't like being over feminine. I preferred plain jackets, especially leather and denim, and very plain tee shirt tops.
I think I reached my own personal tipping point when I was ill once and had to get to a & e - all I could cope with was jeans, tee shirt and no make up. Basically what I'd have worn as a bloke. And I found out I still passed as female. And apart from days when I am lacking in confidence my best days are those days when I put on jeans and tee shirt and just be me. But I couldn't even being to go there until I felt established as female.
But I live in the gender binary world. I work in a place with a dress code. I have a boyfriend who likes me looking feminine and because I love him I do the best I can to please him and myself as much as possible.
Also there is still an element of because I can. Because I can put on a long pink skirt and a strappy top and go into town, sometimes I do. I'm sure in time this need will fade, I will feel more secure in my relationship and I will become the woman I was always meant to be.

What's so fucked up is that cis women are bombarded with messages about what constitutes the type of femininity they should conform to, and while I understand the reasons you've expressed feeling so far are different, the similarities are striking. It's something we can and should unite over. I don't blame cis women for feeling that pressure, nor for the ways they deal with it. Just as none of us should blame trans women for feeling a similar pressure (albeit often for different (yet related) reasons), nor for the ways they deal with it.

It's so bleedingly obvious that we share this struggle it's astonishing to me that some still rail against it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

This has the potential to either be good or very bad:



Context is the crowning of Miss Transgender UK.

 

[elbows]

Thanks for the kind words moon. Not going to continue the 'me' strand of this thread right now though, so apologies for the lack of more expansive response.

The c4 thing could be interesting indeed, thanks for the heads up Vintage Paw.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Here it is:



I didn't see if there was any in-studio debate.

 

[Athos]

What does 'passing' really mean? Is it that trans people get less abuse (albeit they still get too much), because society is becoming more tolerant? Or is it a phenomenon whereby observers don't realise that a trans person was assigned a different gender at birth? Which poses the question: is it better to be recognised as trans and accepted, or not to be recognised as such?

Personally, I'm not convinced that many of the high-profile trans women who are held out as 'passing' would be mistaken for cis women e.g. Caitlin Jenner. But, the fact that the response to her seems to have been positive must be a good thing.

I guess the question is whether the focus on passing undermines the idea that it's possible to look like a woman without necessarily having to look like a cis woman (and the wider question of women - cis or trans - 'having' to look a particular way).

 

[Sea Star]

Here it is:



I didn't see if there was any in-studio debate.

I doubt I'll be able to bring myself to watch it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I guess the question is whether the focus on passing undermines the idea that it's possible to look like a woman without necessarily having to look like a cis woman (and the wider question of women - cis or trans - 'having' to look a particular way).

This is precisely what we've been discussing.

What does 'passing' really mean? Is it that trans people get less abuse (albeit they still get too much), because society is becoming more tolerant? Or is it a phenomenon whereby observers don't realise that a trans person was assigned a different gender at birth? Which poses the question: is it better to be recognised as trans and accepted, or not to be recognised as such?

At its most basic, passing means flying under the radar. In this instance, it means that upon meeting a trans person you wouldn't know they were trans. This seems to be easier and more common for trans men than for women (there are likely multiple reasons for that), and then in turn for trans women who have more money. Passing is often a class issue.

Certainly, your two points intertwine: trans people get less abuse if observers don't realise they are trans.

I expect that the answer to your question about which is better depends wholly on the person involved. What's clear is it's important that trans people be supported whichever approach they personally prefer.

The goal must be to increase tolerance so that not passing (either by choice or necessity) doesn't bring additional risks to safety and health.

Personally, I'm not convinced that many of the high-profile trans women who are held out as 'passing' would be mistaken for cis women e.g. Caitlin Jenner. But, the fact that the response to her seems to have been positive must be a good thing.

Might that be because you already know they are trans? I shan't do this because it's crass and insensitive, but I could show you countless photos of trans women and if I didn't tell you they were trans you wouldn't know.

But all of this is why it's so important that trans people be welcomed into feminism as a whole. I won't repeat myself at length, but fighting against the idea that there is one way for women (and men) to look and act has long been a goal of feminism, and it's clear that the same thing would be beneficial to trans people. Just as cis women experience all manner of shit for how they look and act, so too do trans people. The difference is that trans people face very real threats of violence and abuse if they don't pass.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I doubt I'll be able to bring myself to watch it.

The only people she speaks to are trans people.

That said, it made me angry. Not because of the interviewer, but because of some of the attitudes held by some of the people interviewed.

It's a short piece. It sums up what we've been talking about in this thread.

 

[Athos]

... What's clear is it's important that trans people be supported whichever approach they personally prefer.

The goal must be to increase tolerance so that not passing (either by choice or necessity) doesn't bring additional risks to safety and health.

Agreed.

 

[Sea Star]

The only people she speaks to are trans people.

That said, it made me angry. Not because of the interviewer, but because of some of the attitudes held by some of the people interviewed.

It's a short piece. It sums up what we've been talking about in this thread.

Two of my worst stalker/ abusers have been trans women who agree with TERF ideology.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Two of my worst stalker/ abusers have been trans women who agree with TERF ideology.

 

[stethoscope]

…

 

[Athos]

Two of my worst stalker/ abusers have been trans women who agree with TERF ideology.

Whilst you should never have been stalked or abused by anyone, I don't know whether or not this is true, since you have said the same about me (which is demonstrably false); it strikes me that you confuse 'TERFs' for 'anyone who disagrees with you about anything', whether through ignorance or an intellectually dishonest attempt to bully others into silence.

 

[stethoscope]

I think its easy tbh though for cis people (and that can also include trans people who are long-time transitioned and found a space where they can separate this stuff from the raw end of their experiences) to look at this stuff in such an objective sense. When you're constantly on the receiving end of abuse/people pulling part your experience/existence, questioning every little thing with your looks/dress/expressions of gender, whether in the street or online, I don't think its so unusual to build up such a protective wall - and that goes and has gone for all those that are on the receiving end of oppression/inequality (sex/gender, LGBT, race, etc). Trans politics and the visibility of trans people and them building up a voice is quite new in terms of political movements - there's nothing I see with trans politics that I haven't seen with other minority movements in the past. In the end, trans people can discuss and discuss (and they do) but sometimes it gets to the point of just telling people to fuck right off if they can't 101.

That said, I personally find the 'terf' stuff to be a bit counterproductive as it tends to be overly used and abused sometimes against potential allies, which I think is the problem more with how this stuff is played out on the internet and social media, than it would if people just got into a room together and discussed this stuff through - actually finding that there's more to unite trans people and feminism, for example, than there is to divide. And that's not a one way criticism, I see all manner of crap from supposed rad fems and separatists being thrown around too (misinforming other potential allies about positions/beliefs that trans people supposedly hold in order to just win some war of words between teh trans vs rad fems.

I think the 'bullying into silence' is a load of bollocks though, for the same reasons that this is pulled out by any members of society that have privilege over another group. We've seen this shit over the years about race, about sexuality, about women, and now its happening to trans people. 'Oh, I can't say that any more', 'political correctness', 'debate shut down', etc. And yet, those people with the privilege (and often with platforms too) carry on saying what the fuck they like anyway regardless.

I also saw an utter car crash of a thread on libcom yesterday, where I just can't believe that even amongst otherwise politically aware comrades, can still start from some ignorant and reifying starting positions.

 

[Athos]

I think its easy tbh though for cis people (and that can also include trans people who are long-time transitioned and found a space where they can separate this stuff from the raw end of their experiences) to look at this stuff in such an objective sense. When you're constantly on the receiving end of abuse/people pulling part your experience/existence, questioning every little thing with your looks/dress/expressions of gender, whether in the street or online, I don't think its so unusual to build up such a protective wall - and that goes and has gone for all those that are on the receiving end of oppression/inequality (sex/gender, LGBT, race, etc). Trans politics and the visibility of trans people and them building up a voice is quite new in terms of political movements - there's nothing I see with trans politics that I haven't seen with other minority movements in the past. In the end, trans people can discuss and discuss (and they do) but sometimes it gets to the point of just telling people to fuck right off if they can't 101.

That said, I personally find the 'terf' stuff to be a bit counterproductive as it tends to be overly used and abused sometimes against potential allies, which I think is the problem more with how this stuff is played out on the internet and social media, than it would if people just got into a room together and discussed this stuff through - actually finding that there's more to unite trans people and feminism, for example, than there is to divide. And that's not a one way criticism, I see all manner of crap from supposed rad fems and separatists being thrown around too (misinforming other potential allies about positions/beliefs that trans people supposedly hold in order to just win some war of words between teh trans vs rad fems.

I think the 'bullying into silence' is a load of bollocks though, for the same reasons that this is pulled out by any members of society that have privilege over another group. We've seen this shit over the years about race, about sexuality, about women, and now its happening to trans people. 'Oh, I can't say that any more', 'political correctness', 'debate shut down', etc. And yet, those people with the privilege (and often with platforms too) carry on saying what the fuck they like anyway regardless.

I also saw an utter car crash of a thread on libcom yesterday, where I just can't believe that even amongst otherwise politically aware comrades, can still start from some ignorant and reifying starting positions.

I agree with all of this, except the penultimate paragraph, where there's a false equivalence between a bigot who uses the 'political correctness gone mad' argument, and a non-bigot who thinks that there is scope for discussion within a trans-accepting position.

 

[stethoscope]

Y'see, I get what you're saying there Athos, but I've seen Bindel and other commentators go back and forth on this over the years to the point where I don't always know where bigot and non-bigot start and end. 'I'm supportive of trans people - we should be horrified at abuse they suffer' - 'I disagree with those surgeries - they're still just men regardless', etc.

 

[Athos]

Y'see, I get what you're saying there Athos, but I've seen Bindel and other commentators go back and forth on this over the years to the point where I don't always know where bigot and non-bigot start and end. 'I'm supportive of trans people - we should be horrified at abuse they suffer' - 'I disagree with those surgeries - they're still just their birth sex', etc.

Fair enough. And I guess being wrongly labeled a TERF pales into insignificance compared to the hardships many trans people face. But I think we agree that the frequency and manner in which some people throw that label about (even at allies) can be counterproductive.

 

[stethoscope]

Fair enough. And I guess being wrongly labeled a TERF pales into insignificance compared to the hardships many trans people face. But I think we agree that the frequency and manner in which some people throw that label about (even at allies) can be counterproductive.

Yeah, I think it can be unhelpful, whilst I certainly understand why people (and I say that because its not only trans people that use 'terf' of course, but allies) resort to it when they're on the receiving end of the same old arguments (or what might look like it). I think a lot of this is still just unfortunately blown massively out of proportion through today's social media communication (rather than even good old fashioned forums like here - but even then things get misconstrued ) that seems to reduce down to conveying and arguing what might be complex and nuanced positions and points in too few words/inappropriate mediums.

That said, I'm a known grouch about social media - Vintage Paw will probably have a different and more positive take on this.

Also, I have to acknowledge having reached my own privilege/strength in all of this when it comes to my own sex/gender/body identity stuff. I remember going back 4 years on here and when discussions like this happened, or people said ignorant things, I'd feel really vulnerable and upset by it all, and sometimes internalise it. Now I'm able to more objectively look at stuff and argue and call people cunts but then just get on with what I'm otherwise getting on with!

 

[Athos]

Yeah, I think it can be unhelpful, whilst I certainly understand why people (and I say that because its not only trans people that use 'terf' of course, but allies) resort to it when they're on the receiving end of the same old arguments (or what might look like it). I think a lot of this is still just unfortunately blown massively out of proportion through today's social media communication (rather than even good old fashioned forums like here - but even then things get misconstrued ) that seems to reduce down to conveying and arguing what might be complex and nuanced positions and points in too few words/inappropriate mediums.

That said, I'm a known grouch about social media - Vintage Paw will probably have a different and more positive take on this.

Also, I have to acknowledge having reached my own privilege/strength in all of this when it comes to my own gender/sex stuff. I remember going back 4 years on here and when discussions like this happened, or people said ignorant things, I'd feel really vulnerable and upset by it all, and sometimes internalise it. Now I'm able to more objectively look at stuff and call people cunts and get on with what I'm otherwise getting on with!

You're right about the polarising nature of much of the discussion which takes place via social media. And about the cathartic benefits of calling people cunts!

 

[Vintage Paw]

That said, I'm a known grouch about social media - Vintage Paw will probably have a different and more positive take on this.

I don't know where anyone gets this idea that I'm wedded to twitter or something...

 

[Vintage Paw]

You're right though. Social media technology has massively outpaced the development of our emotional intelligence and ability to know how to deal with it. It brings so many benefits and opportunities, but because our thinking hasn't developed alongside it to the same degree the ways in which we use it often fall short.

A lot of people overstate the importance of twitter (myself included sometimes). If you're firmly in the bubble, you can think all the world's battles are fought and lost in a string of 140 characters. That's the same with anything though, because it's easier to view life with some kind of fence around it, rather than have to deal with all of it all of the time.

At the same time, however, a lot of people understate the importance of twitter. Quite apart from the obvious stuff like it being used to coordinate and get news out during the Arab Spring, and its subversive nature in the eyes of China etc, the nature of who uses twitter means it is an important staging ground: the media use twitter and give it a lot of importance, which in turn means that what happens on twitter makes its way off twitter and into other news channels. That can be used strategically. So rather than saying twitter has no influence on the many more millions of regular people who don't use it and only read the mail or whatever, we'd be better understanding that the people who write the news are up to their eyeballs in twitter themselves. It's no different to anything else in that regard: you don't have to be personally involved in a particular debate or be physically present in order to be affected by it or informed by it in some way, because it filters through all sorts of different channels in one way or another.

Anyway, that's massively off-topic. I like the look of my own typing too much

 

[Sea Star]

Whilst you should never have been stalked or abused by anyone, I don't know whether or not this is true, since you have said the same about me (which is demonstrably false); it strikes me that you confuse 'TERFs' for 'anyone who disagrees with you about anything', whether through ignorance or an intellectually dishonest attempt to bully others into silence.

Let me see. Repeatedly retweeted me out of context to claim I was a misogynist man. Set up a website to imply I might be a child abuser changing gender to escape justice. Wrote to the Green Party to get me deselected because I maintained I was a woman and they claimed this was misogyny. And so on. I'd say they were TERF arguments based on TERF doctrines. I think you need to stop worrying about what bigots think and start worrying about the people they attack.
Basically, one of them just trolls trans women who are probably.quite vulnerable and tries to undermine their confidence. I'm beyond this now because I know who I am.

 

[Sea Star]

Yeah, I think it can be unhelpful, whilst I certainly understand why people (and I say that because its not only trans people that use 'terf' of course, but allies) resort to it when they're on the receiving end of the same old arguments (or what might look like it). I think a lot of this is still just unfortunately blown massively out of proportion through today's social media communication (rather than even good old fashioned forums like here - but even then things get misconstrued ) that seems to reduce down to conveying and arguing what might be complex and nuanced positions and points in too few words/inappropriate mediums.

That said, I'm a known grouch about social media - Vintage Paw will probably have a different and more positive take on this.

Also, I have to acknowledge having reached my own privilege/strength in all of this when it comes to my own sex/gender/body identity stuff. I remember going back 4 years on here and when discussions like this happened, or people said ignorant things, I'd feel really vulnerable and upset by it all, and sometimes internalise it. Now I'm able to more objectively look at stuff and argue and call people cunts but then just get on with what I'm otherwise getting on with!

When I stood for election I was the object of a concerted campaign to smear me just because I was an openly trans woman standing up for trans rights. I nearly folded under the pressure.
If what happened on social media stayed on social media then that might be fine, but my name was being bandied about in known TERF circles (Cathy Brennan et al), I was attacked in the New Statesman, and they tried to have me deselected by my party.
It kicked of a level of anxiety that I still haven't recovered from, I nearly lost my job, I had weeks off work, and I've dropped out of politics.

 

[stethoscope]

Oh yeah, I know what sort of shit gets flung lovely x Just to make clear that whilst I think the 'terf' stuff is unhelpful, I'm still talking mostly about usual trading of opinion (even when it gets hostile) on social media, it doesn't come anywhere near the likes of GenderTrender and such blogs which I don't even look at as being particularly strong in their rad fem political analysis, more just peddling hate campaigns.

Unfortunately, stuff from blogs and social media now also soon turns into fodder for the wider media where the ante is sometimes upped even more, whereas I remember this stuff being very confined to feminist/trans spaces online only not that many years ago.

 

[Sea Star]

Oh yeah, I know what sort of shit gets flung lovely x Just to make clear that whilst I think the 'terf' stuff is unhelpful, I'm still talking mostly about usual trading of opinion (even when it gets hostile) on social media, it doesn't come anywhere near the likes of GenderTrender and such blogs which I don't even look at as being particularly strong in their rad fem political analysis, more just peddling hate campaigns.

Unfortunately, stuff from blogs and social media now also soon turns into fodder for the wider media where the ante is sometimes upped even more, whereas I remember this stuff being very confined to feminist/trans spaces online only not that many years ago.

I'm not sure theres anything to be gained by that sort of thing either. I just block tbh. My Tweeting is more about support for trans people and being positive. I've had many cis people thank me for opening their eyes to the sort of stuff trans people have to go through.

 

[toggle]

Two of my worst stalker/ abusers have been trans women who agree with TERF ideology.

Let me see. Repeatedly retweeted me out of context to claim I was a misogynist man. Set up a website to imply I might be a child abuser changing gender to escape justice. Wrote to the Green Party to get me deselected because I maintained I was a woman and they claimed this was misogyny. And so on. I'd say they were TERF arguments based on TERF doctrines. I think you need to stop worrying about what bigots think and start worrying about the people they attack.
Basically, one of them just trolls trans women who are probably.quite vulnerable and tries to undermine their confidence. I'm beyond this now because I know who I am.

i've seen some of that shit. and it does have terf written all over it. the only thing i wasn't aware of was where it was coming from.

ffs.

 

[Sea Star]

i've seen some of that shit. and it does have terf written all over it. the only thing i wasn't aware of was where it was coming from.

ffs.

My bf is a bit of a techy as are many trans people - so we managed to work out a lot of this activity came from a few individuals. One of them is a trans woman and I even know where she lives. But I'm better than her.
Another one was Cathy Brennan and we managed to get in touch and convince her to back down.
The upshot of this was I had to endure a shit storm of abuse on Twitter (and a mention in national media) while trying to run an election campaign.

 

[Sea Star]

Fair enough. And I guess being wrongly labeled a TERF pales into insignificance compared to the hardships many trans people face. But I think we agree that the frequency and manner in which some people throw that label about (even at allies) can be counterproductive.

I think trans people are the ones who get to decide who the allies are. I don't see you as one.