To what extent, and why, is 'freedom' a 'problem'?

[Jonti]

Jonti: I think 'deconstruct the necessity of theistic transcendence' means that you think theistic transcendence is a fact, and you want to show why that must be so.

Ibn Khaldoun: Yes I do.

So you think you can prove the existence of God by reasoning.

But I think that almost blasphemous: God is the smarter, and will always be able to hide from you.

 

[Jonti]

There's a special thread for folks who think they've got an idea of what their deity is actually like, right here.

Unsurprisingly, no-one's stepped up to the challenge yet. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go?

 

[deke t lefel]

But perhaps you mistake the 1 for the singularity?

not really, that would be the point

 

[deke t lefel]

Because they are in power to bestow it upon women.

It has fuck all to do with honour. It's just a power relation.

what form does the power take and why are men in the position of power?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

So you think you can prove the existence of God by reasoning.

But I think that almost blasphemous: God is the smarter, and will always be able to hide from you.

No.

A singularity is not God.

[However, I apologise for misleading you.]

I was merely being rhetorical. Because, in modernity, the 'personal God' has become decomposed.

However, I am an advocate of Mohammed's doctrine.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

what form does the power take and why are men in the position of power?

It's a system of violence.

Gendered oppression was the first one that resulted from private property.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

We are approaching a new moment.

Allah said that before the Day of Judgement we will see Islam. We will. And the kufars fear.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

He made a mistake, though.

Night shall overtake day.

 

[Jonti]

No.

A singularity is not God.

[However, I apologise for misleading you.]

I was merely being rhetorical. Because, in modernity, the 'personal God' has become decomposed.

However, I am an advocate of Mohammed's doctrine.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Jonti]

The so-called Kantian intuition isn't an intuition at all. 3D space plus a marking of events with time are both hard-wired into us. They are a means of making sense of our perceptions that has evolved over millions of years. But they are no more 'out there' than, say, the colour red is 'out there'.

It's hard to disagree with this, but it's also hard to agree with it without contradiction.

As it stands, the argument that space and time are (what we may call) artefacts or features of the way we are made is based on biological evolution. But evolution conceives of 3D-space and time as existing 'out there'. Life and sex, birth and death take place on planet earth, a ball of condensed stardust orbiting a burning star.

The argument appeals to a process conceived as taking place in this framework to suggest the framework is the result of that process. And that seems contradictory, for the process could not take place at all, except within the framework.

 

[deke t lefel]

Art is material.

is that from the Qur'an?

art is in the ground/art is material

makes some sense, most art takes some sort of material form, it is conceived in the brain, which is material and the brain could be defined as part of the ground
some art is possibly produced entirely from intuitions, this art could possibly be defined as material
most art is conceived by the use of the senses, which receive information from the surroundings - these senses are interpreted by the brain and then expressed in the material
so in this case, art is more of an expression in the material of the psychological interpretation of the surroundings
anyway, is the consciousness that conceives the art considered material or psychological or both?

 

[deke t lefel]

What we have is the absolute right to murder our oppressor.

is that from the Qur'an?

if so, a reference would be helpful please

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Has this thread really descended into a exegesis of the Koran?

I don't give a stuff what the Koran says. Present your ideas, please. Do not appeal to an authority that most posters, including me, do not recognise as any kind of authority.

 

[deke t lefel]

It's a system of violence.

Gendered oppression was the first one that resulted from private property.

is the violence the result of a purely physical oppression or is it the result of a combination of a physical and psychological oppression?

who created the system?
why is it allowed to persist?

 

[deke t lefel]

Has this thread really descended into a exegesis of the Koran?

I don't give a stuff what the Koran says. Present your ideas, please. Do not appeal to an authority that most posters, including me, do not recognise as any kind of authority.

just attempting to understand where somebody is coming from, not much point in communicating otherwise

are there any authorities that are recognised?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

are there any authorities that are recognised?

Not to me, no. I want to hear people's own ideas on this forum, not what their guru thinks.

 

[deke t lefel]

fair enough, although personal knowledge is influenced by history and historical texts
some obtain knowledge from many sources and others focus on one, sometimes it's good to query the opinion of one who is focusing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

fair enough, although personal knowledge is influenced by history and historical texts

Of course it is. But once you have properly understood something, even though you may have learned it first from another, it then becomes your knowledge. That's certainly all I'm interested in hearing – the ideas that people have incorporated into themselves. At his worst, IbnK has in the past sounded like he has been regurgitating the half-understood ideas of others, which is a shame because when he doesn't do that he has worthwhile points to make.

 

[deke t lefel]

Of course it is. But once you have properly understood something, even though you may have learned it first from another, it then becomes your knowledge. That's certainly all I'm interested in hearing – the ideas that people have incorporated into themselves.

if knowledge is received by a subject from "another" and if time and space are internal to the subject
is original knowledge transcendent to the subject and are time and space immanent to the subject?

 

[Jonti]

Maybe, it is not that knowledge is received by a subject from "another", but that the subject finds the meaning of the other (the meaning of the other being understood as the possibilities and limitations on the self).

 

[Jazzz]

There's a special thread for folks who think they've got an idea of what their deity is actually like, right here.

Unsurprisingly, no-one's stepped up to the challenge yet. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go?

I believe I gave an answer.

 

[deke t lefel]

He made a mistake, though.

Night shall overtake day.

when you say "He" do you mean Allah, Gabriel, Muhammad or some sort of archetypal male?

night overtakes day approximately every 24 hours, or are you equating "night" with evil and "day" with good?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

when you say "He" do you mean Allah, Gabriel, Muhammad or some sort of archetypal male?

night overtakes day approximately every 24 hours, or are you equating "night" with evil and "day" with good?

dark matter, man

 

[deke t lefel]

dark matter, man

fear not

dark matter, dark energy and dark flow are as benign as their more readily observed counterparts: matter, energy and light

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

fear not

dark matter, dark energy and dark flow are as benign as their more readily observed counterparts: matter, energy and light

Many are quite convinced that is not so. For what reasons do you say this?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

We experience the possibility of choice, and we make choices.

But why is this question important? It is practically useless. What is in its indeterminability that gives us the basis of the question? *Why* is it important?

Why does control need to control?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Why does control need to control?

Control is a quality possessed, or lacked, by a person.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Control is a quality possessed, or lacked, by a person.

On an individual level perhaps. What about control as a social or structural or economic or spiritual construct? Choice is an illusion if your choices are controlled by external forces and factors that shut down or diminish your possible choices.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

On an individual level perhaps.

That's almost exclusively the perspective I'm taking here.

What about control as a social or structural or economic or spiritual construct? Choice is an illusion if your choices are controlled by external forces and factors that shut down or diminish your possible choices.

We only ever have so many choices, but does that mean we don't still have the ability to make choices? Even our own experience of our choices or lack-thereof is something we do creatively.

 

[deke t lefel]

Many are quite convinced that is not so. For what reasons do you say this?

light without dark would not illuminate, it would cause blindness - who said something like that?

dark matter, dark energy and dark flow are benign in that they do not choose to cause harm