The word Nature- tell me why it shouldn’t be banned.

[bimble]

Ketamine is unnatural but DMT is good for you yep.

 

[LDC]

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There's not many complex philosophical issues that plague humanity that can't be sorted out by a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon.

 

[Colin Hunt]

William Cronon wrote about the construction of nature (particularly 'wilderness') as a contrast to the human-influenced world, and how that duality necessarily involves the erasure of indigenous people's lived experiences. Uncommon Ground: Rethinking the Human Place in Nature.

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The irony of this is that human history is a history of taming nature, with the domestication of wild cats being a good example. Although with cats we never know whether they saw us as a good stable source of food and helped to kickstart their own domestication.

 

[JimW]

The pre-Qin text Zhuangzi dwells on this a bit and it makes a useful point about the "nature" of a tree being to grow up straight and spread its branches but the soils and winds etc affecting whether that happens. Then it's also interesting to see what terms were used in a very different philosophical tradition and there is some overlap, with xing 性 being what is inborn in humans and Nature as in the world out there being ziran 自然 "that which is so of itself".

 

[bimble]

JimW In modern (?) chinese is there an equivalent to our everyday use of this word nature not as in 'it is in the nature of a fish to swim' but as in, let's go for a lovely walk in the pretty nature ?

 

[maomao]

All the definitions of nature I can find start by excluding humans from the meaning. What's wrong with a word that means this? How else do I express 'those things in the world not made or directly caused by humankind'?

 

[JimW]

JimW In modern (?) chinese is there an equivalent to our everyday use of this word nature not as in 'it is in the nature of a fish to swim' but as in, let's go for a lovely walk in the pretty nature ?

That's that second term though they sometimes add a character meaning big or great - so "back to Nature" is 回归大自然. I'd not swear that the usage isn't Western or Japanese influenced, but just been translating some essays on the history of Chinese art and there was definitely a thing with the early landscapes (like a thousand years ago) representing a mental idealised nature that the scholar could spirit wander through. Interestingly deliberately slightly fantastic. With my memory I'd have to check again exactly how they phrased that, might have been more "landscape" which is how we translate 山水, more literally "mountains and rivers"

 

[two sheds]

JimW In modern (?) chinese is there an equivalent to our everyday use of this word nature not as in 'it is in the nature of a fish to swim' but as in, let's go for a lovely walk in the pretty nature ?

Why does nature have to be 'pretty'? If your view of nature is that it's twee then you're definitely not going to like the concept.

Our landscape is managed by humans but it has native plants whose position may be controlled but were here independent of humans.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Puddy_Tat that's one of the (let me list them) things thats so great about the cat, unlike dogs he hasn't bothered to evolve eyebrows with which to charm me with human-ish plaintive facial expressions, and he still has his proper claws. He is basically a tiny lion. yes. Dog people I bet they use the word Nature all the time.

puss puss puss...

Although with cats we never know whether they saw us as a good stable source of food and helped to kickstart their own domestication.

i'm fairly sure cats domesticated humans for entertainment purposes...

 

[Sasaferrato]

Then you're using it in an idiosyncratic way. If you mean all living things and all of their doings, so that includes bonzai and pizza delivery apps as part of nature, which is fine, if that's your understanding of the word, but unusual.

This is difficult.

Occurring with no synthethising process, so as it has always been with no intervention.

So, a landscaped garden is beautiful but not natural, a sandy beach is both beautiful and natural.

Humans and most animals are natural, others are not.

Fish are natural, except where they aren't...

 

[JimW]

Just looked up early cites of ziran and it seems to have been used in that sense in a Han text so that's pretty old.

 

[a_chap]

RSPB probably think that me feeding fatballs from the internet to the birds all winter is Nature, when in fact its the opposite.

You clearly hate the RSPB. Why is that?

 

[Brainaddict]

You clearly hate the RSPB. Why is that?

Quite a lot of people hate the RSPB actually, including a lot of people who love birds and a lot of people who want to see richer ecosystems. Perhaps in this case though the problem is their alienated notion of nature, and humanity as its (failing) guardian.

 

[two sheds]

Quite a lot of people hate the RSPB actually, including a lot of people who love birds and a lot of people who want to see richer ecosystems. Perhaps in this case though the problem is their alienated notion of nature, and humanity as its (failing) guardian.

Why's that? I know some aren't happy with the RSPCA but I've not heard anything against the RSPB. As far as I've seen they do a lot of good work.

 

[bimble]

All the definitions of nature I can find start by excluding humans from the meaning. What's wrong with a word that means this? How else do I express 'those things in the world not made or directly caused by humankind'?

That is interesting. My feeling when starting the thread is its weird that we exclude ourselves, as a species, from this nebulous thing we call Nature. but as you say maybe that is now the whole point of the word, that its not us or not effected by us.

 

[planetgeli]

Is a bird's nest natural?

Is the world black and white?

A bird's nest is a great example. It is a construction from nature and natural things. But more than that, it's specifically part of the process to ensure successful reproduction, birth, in the species. It's not a home to live in.

 

[bimble]

Why does nature have to be 'pretty'? If your view of nature is that it's twee then you're definitely not going to like the concept.

Our landscape is managed by humans but it has native plants whose position may be controlled but were here independent of humans.

I think Nature as we use it is very close to the Picturesque, a very modern and posh person romantic and disconnected sort of notion. Seems to me that for most of human history the idea that the environment in which we have to eat and stay warm / avoid predators with big teeth etc is in any way pretty would just be mad, but for us now, when people talk about Nature , it definitely has that flavour of prettiness / purity imo.

 

[BillRiver]

Is the world black and white?

A bird's nest is a great example. It is a construction from nature and natural things. But more than that, it's specifically part of the process to ensure successful reproduction, birth, in the species. It's not a home to live in.

Some birds use human litter (eg bits of plastic) in their nest-building nowadays. Are their nests less natural?

 

[JimW]

I think Nature as we use it is very close to the Picturesque, a very modern and posh person romantic and disconnected sort of notion. Seems to me that for most of human history the idea that the environment in which we have to eat and stay warm / avoid predators with big teeth etc is in any way pretty would just be mad, but for us now, when people talk about Nature , it definitely has that flavour of prettiness / purity imo.

Maybe prehistory but suspect in historical times it was often seen as an attractive alternative to the human world, seem to recall stuff would fit that in early Buddhist texts. Not sure about other Indian traditions, should think you could look at the surviving earliest texts around the world.

 

[planetgeli]

Some birds use human litter (eg bits of plastic) in their nest-building nowadays. Are their nests less natural?

No

 

[planetgeli]

Ketamine is unnatural but DMT is good for you yep.

This is a weird jump.

Putting subjective value judgements of good and bad onto natural and unnatural is not the way to go.

Everything is. As Sun Ra said.

 

[two sheds]

Not just pretty though. Volcanoes and hurricanes aren't pretty but are part of nature.

Daoists said to learn from nature, and arguably many of our human problems, particularly climate change, have come from ignoring our effect on nature.

 

[bimble]

Maybe prehistory but suspect in historical times it was often seen as an attractive alternative to the human world, seem to recall stuff would fit that in early Buddhist texts. Not sure about other Indian traditions, should think you could look at the surviving earliest texts around the world.

friend just texted me back saying hindi has ..कुदरत . Which he'd say means 'that which is natural' but isnt a good match for ours.

 

[bimble]

This is a weird jump.

Putting subjective value judgements of good and bad onto natural and unnatural is not the way to go.

Everything is. As Sun Ra said.

 

[JimW]

friend just texted me back saying hindi has ..कुदरत . Which he'd say means 'that which is natural' but isnt a good match for ours.

Noticeable that the sangha gathers in a deer park, which is both going to nature and evidence of landscaping.
Been thinking about some of the early Chinese poetry I was working with too, bits of the Book of Odes which is fifth century bce IIRC could be classed as celebrating nature, bird cries on river islets as love metaphor, plucking at trailing waterweed from your boat etc

 

[bimble]

Noticeable that the sangha gathers in a deer park, which is both going to nature and evidence of landscaping.
Been thinking about some of the early Chinese poetry I was working with too, bits of the Book of Odes which is fifth century bce IIRC could be classed as celebrating nature, bird cries on river islets as love metaphor, plucking at trailing waterweed from your boat etc

see also, epicurus's garden.

 

[JimW]

see also, epicurus's garden.

I'll have to look that up, I'm woeful on the classical tradition.

 

[maomao]

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That's just marketing bollocks though. Advertising ruins language generally, not just that word.

 

[planetgeli]

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Of course I can judge that as 100% (see what I did there?) bad.

But that's marketing. And specifically the word 'natural' - not nature as in your thread title. Sure, aim at the marketing and bastardization of a word or concept but not the word itself. There is a need for 'nature'. There is no excuse for what capitalism has done with that.

 

[bimble]

fair enough. Meaning of a word is its use though isnt it. So we're not immune, if we see that all the time.