The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[RD2003]

Germany’s Die Linke could split into two parties over the Ukraine war, as the ailing leftwing outfit’s indecisive stance over economic sanctions against Russia triggered a series of high-profile resignations this week.

The German Left party’s future has hung in a precarious balance since it snuck into the national parliament last autumn under a special provision for parties that win three or more constituency seats.

Should three of its 39 delegates resign from the party, Die Linke would lose its status as a parliamentary group and attached privileges over speaking times and committee memberships.

Party insiders say such resignations are a matter of when, not if, after a week of vicious public in-fighting over a speech in which the former co-leader Sahra Wagenknecht accused the German government of “launching an unprecedented economic war against our most important energy supplier”.

Read the full report here.

 

[Dystopiary]

This is interesting (historical) about a seriously brave Ukrainian anarchist woman and her comrades. She was involved in a lot of direct action, acts of solidarity and was one of the founders of the Ukrainian Black Cross. She spent large chunks of her adult life in prison and was eventually murdered by the Moscow regime in 1938.

Life of Olga Taratuta and Anna Stepanova – Anarchist Black Cross Belarus

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Not sure this is the correct thread but here's an AnarCom Network article on the current situation

Solidarity with the War Resisters!

Putin’s bluff is called and the mask of ‘special’ has fallen away from the operational war being engaged in Ukraine. Russia had thought that Ukraine was the capital asset up for grabs to be w…

anarcomuk.uk

 

[AmateurAgitator]

A round up from the CWO published on the 10th September about unrest in Ukraine

A Report on Socio-Economic Unrest in Ukraine

(We reproduce the following article in solidarity with Assembly, an anarchist group based in Kharkiv which has been reporting on workers’ struggles in Ukraine on both sides of the front line (see: https://assembly.org.ua/).

www.leftcom.org

 

[The39thStep]

A round up from the CWO published on the 10th September about unrest in Ukraine

A Report on Socio-Economic Unrest in Ukraine

(We reproduce the following article in solidarity with Assembly, an anarchist group based in Kharkiv which has been reporting on workers’ struggles in Ukraine on both sides of the front line (see: https://assembly.org.ua/).

www.leftcom.org

That’s very useful

 

[sleaterkinney]

 

[LDC]

Fuck right off with that, and then fuck off some more.

Here's something good from Freedom, interview with RKAS in Ukraine

"Leftists" outside Ukraine are used to listening only to people from Moscow: Interview with anarcho-syndicalists in Eastern Ukraine - Freedom News

Yavor Tarinski from the Greek libertarian journal Aftoleksi interviews two anarchists from eastern Ukraine. They themselves were politically active for decades in eastern Ukraine until before the 2014 invasion – where the possibility of any unmediated political action collapsed. They are both...

freedomnews.org.uk

"But in fact, almost all Ukrainian anarchists are now resisting Putin and the Russian invasion in some way. And we know many Ukrainian anti-authoritarian Marxists who are in the same position, for example, the Social Movement group, the independent trade union Defending Labour, the editorial board of the socialist magazine Commons and other initiatives. These and other groups are little known outside Ukraine, but this is simply because “leftists” outside Ukraine (again: we don’t know who they are) are used to listening only to people from Moscow. In our view, this means that for many who live outside the former Soviet Union, the Soviet empire is still alive today. At least in their minds, in their fantasies….

 

[The39thStep]

Fuck right off with that, and then fuck off some more.

Here's something good from Freedom, interview with RKAS in Ukraine

"Leftists" outside Ukraine are used to listening only to people from Moscow: Interview with anarcho-syndicalists in Eastern Ukraine - Freedom News

Yavor Tarinski from the Greek libertarian journal Aftoleksi interviews two anarchists from eastern Ukraine. They themselves were politically active for decades in eastern Ukraine until before the 2014 invasion – where the possibility of any unmediated political action collapsed. They are both...

freedomnews.org.uk

"But in fact, almost all Ukrainian anarchists are now resisting Putin and the Russian invasion in some way. And we know many Ukrainian anti-authoritarian Marxists who are in the same position, for example, the Social Movement group, the independent trade union Defending Labour, the editorial board of the socialist magazine Commons and other initiatives. These and other groups are little known outside Ukraine, but this is simply because “leftists” outside Ukraine (again: we don’t know who they are) are used to listening only to people from Moscow. In our view, this means that for many who live outside the former Soviet Union, the Soviet empire is still alive today. At least in their minds, in their fantasies….

Gross exaggeration , if not a downright strawman , that for many the Soviet Union is still alive or that they listen to Moscow . In reality how many on the left are campaigning for a Russian victory ?

In any case it’s the ‘leftists’ in Ukraine , who despite being minuscule, that are setting the agenda for dialogue with western ‘leftists ‘ not the anarchists who are very fragmented .

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Your only have to read some of the comments below the line on some of the StWC posts on Facebook to see how some lefty types think. Not that many, but vocal. Stop the War do not seem to be aware of any history other than the official Russian version, still stuck in the Cold War.

 

[Dystopiary]

Yep, plenty of media people with large follower accounts on eg, twitter, that are linked to Russian state media, pretending to be on the left.
Redfish even has it in the name. Hook, line and sinker.

Spoiler: twitter screenshot

There are loads of Western campists/tankies. They say they're anti-imperialist but lap up Max Blumenthal and the Grayzone, Aaron Maté, Mint Press etc. They claim to be against mainstream media but repeat all the Kremlin lies they hear via its - often insidious - outlets. (So of course there's a strong pro-Assad overlap.) A lot of them seem to have a bad case of national exceptionalism: in their minds, the US/UK/West did bad things = only the US/UK/West do bad things = therefore Russia good + USSR nostalgia.

 

[RD2003]

Gross exaggeration , if not a downright strawman , that for many the Soviet Union is still alive or that they listen to Moscow . In reality how many on the left are campaigning for a Russian victory ?

In any case it’s the ‘leftists’ in Ukraine , who despite being minuscule, that are setting the agenda for dialogue with western ‘leftists ‘ not the anarchists who are very fragmented .

You only have to read what the most vocal posters in the Ukraine threads on here to see how large the exaggeration/fantasy looms in their heads.

I get accused of being pro-Putin and pro-Russia simply for pointing out how the war could have been avoided had a different approach to NATO expansion been taken, and how its expansion played a large part in pissing off Yeltsin and his gang and paving the way for Putin. And this despite having often linking to a wide range of sources, including many western ex-diplomats, Russian 'liberals' and others who support Ukraine but thought the war avoidable.

I've also laughably been accused of being a tankie, despite saying hardly anything that a tankie would agree with. For one thing, tankies are optimists in their own way.

 

[hitmouse]

New video interview with someone from Inicjatywa Pracownicza/Workers' Initiative in Poland:

Solidarity with Trade Unions in Ukraine

Report by Agnieszka Mroz, Inicjatywa Pracownicza, Poznan

en.labournet.tv

Agnieszka Mróz from the Polish base union Inicjatywa Pracownicza (IP) from Poznań, reports on how the situation of workers in Ukraine is currently deteriorating rapidly, with zero-hour contracts, the obligation to work 60 hours a week and much more being imposed on them.

Base unions such as Inicjatywa Pracownicza (IP), SUD-Solidaires, Conlutas, ADL-Cobas are organising solidarity convoys to Ukraine to support the unions there who are currently fighting both the Russian tanks and the erasure of their rights as workers.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

AnarCom Network article on Russia's annexation of parts of Eastern Ukraine etc

Climate Crisis and the Ukraine war: Follow the money

“Together Forever” is no longer just a pop song, but the title of Moscow’s celebration of its annexation of the four eastern provinces of Ukraine. This single act has locked in the intractabi…

anarcomuk.uk

 

[LDC]

Why on earth did the writer use the conspiracy theorists favourite quip as a title?

Laughably simplistic article I think, neglects a whole host of other reasons for the war, it just makes it solely about resources, which is clearly incorrect. Some references would have been good tbh, the writer makes some pretty sweeping statements it would be good show some back-up for.

If that is what the new Anarcom network has to offer for an analysis it's a bit of a pity.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Why on earth did the writer use the conspiracy theorists favourite quip as a title?

Laughably simplistic article I think, neglects a whole host of other reasons for the war, it just makes it solely about resources, which is clearly incorrect. SOme references would have been good tbh, the writer makes some pretty sweeping statements it would be good show some back-up for.

If that is what the new Anarcom network has to offer for an analysis it's a bit of a pity.

I think you're being pedantic and overly and unnecessarily critical and for me your criticisms are weak. I consider it a decent article and I don't think theres any real problem with the title. But I can definitely see why you wouldn't like it. Thats my own view.

 

[LDC]

I think you're being pedantic and overly and unnecessarily critical and for me your criticisms are weak. I consider it a decent article and I don't think theres any real problem with the title. But I can definitely see why you wouldn't like it. Thats my own view.

So it's purely a resource driven war?

 

[The39thStep]

Surely the economic motive is a big player here ?

 

[Rob Ray]

In reality how many on the left are campaigning for a Russian victory ?

Both Stop The War's campaigning and the general lean of the CPB to end the war at its current stage would provide a de facto victory for Putin, with a 19% take of Ukrainian land having wrecked its infrastructure. Generally speaking if you are not aware of the broad sweep of particularly the Leninist left reluctantly acknowledging Putin shouldna done it while making endless excuses about him being sort of morally in the right and fully buying into the "Ukraine's full of fascists" line then you've not been paying attention - they're all over the place.

 

[LDC]

Surely the economic motive is a big player here ?

For the initial Russian invasion? I think maybe, but I'd say it's far from the largest one, and I'd think any article making that argument needs to be a better written, more comprehensive and well referenced one than the one above. It a bit like the odd line taken by some (often conspiracy theory types) that's it's all just engineered by the arms trade so they can make money from it. All the pronouncements by the Russian State have been much more about nationalism, historical destiny, military threats etc. and I don't think that should be taken as the whole story at all, but the Anarcom article above completely neglects considering any other factors for the invasion and war, solely saying it's a war for rare minerals.

It's also weak in terms of analysis of what's going on on the left. This just reads as a weird dig, including at Ukrainian leftists and anarchists:

"Many, including some who think of themselves as revolutionaries, have struggled to understand our opposition to both sides, summed up in the internationalist revolutionary position of ‘no war but the class war’, instead myopically seeing it in moral terms: David versus Goliath, imperialism versus national liberation, good versus evil. This is of little help to the ordinary people like us, the workers and producers on both sides whose lives are being squandered because Ukrainian oligarchs want to sell their stolen riches to the west and Russian oligarchs want to steal the riches for themselves."

Maybe the Anarcom writer should email this lot “Leftists” outside Ukraine are used to listening only to people from Moscow: Interview with anarcho-syndicalists in Eastern Ukraine and tell them they're doing it all wrong, and that it's just a bosses war for resources and they've just got a myopic vision of it being about good versus evil or something? Sure the advice would be very welcome and a great help.

I think with lots of these type of articles (see any of the StW pieces, or the CPGB+ stuff for example) the obvious thing is people have a ideological and dogmatic position, and then they write something to back that position up, with no real reflection or analysis, or even sometimes relation to facts, their simple position is what's being written about, not the reality of what's going on. There's loads of interesting article out there, and loads of criticisms and points of discussion to be made, including from a NWBTCW position, but this isn't one of them.

 

[LDC]

...while making endless excuses about him being sort of morally in the right and fully buying into the "Ukraine's full of fascists" line then you've not been paying attention - they're all over the place.

Some on here tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

For the initial Russian invasion? I think maybe, but I'd say it's far from the largest one, and I'd think any article making that argument needs to be a better written, more comprehensive and well referenced one than the one above. All the pronouncements by the Russian State have been much more about nationalism, historical destiny, military threats etc. and I don't think that should be taken as the whole story at all, but the Anarcom article above completely neglects considering any other factors for the invasion and war, solely saying it's a war for rare minerals.

It's also weak in terms of anaylsis of what's going on on the left. This just reads as a weird dig, including at Ukrainian leftists and anarchists:

"Many, including some who think of themselves as revolutionaries, have struggled to understand our opposition to both sides, summed up in the internationalist revolutionary position of ‘no war but the class war’, instead myopically seeing it in moral terms: David versus Goliath, imperialism versus national liberation, good versus evil. This is of little help to the ordinary people like us, the workers and producers on both sides whose lives are being squandered because Ukrainian oligarchs want to sell their stolen riches to the west and Russian oligarchs want to steal the riches for themselves."

Drawing some strong line between all the people resisting the Russian invasion and war in the various ways they are seems to be a very simplistic and incorrect position (as well as saying it's little help - unlike the NWBTCW position which is helping in what way exactly?) and one that only seems to have value if you like simple ideas and avoid nuance imo. There's loads of interesting article out there, including from a NWBTCW position, but this isn't one of them.

I'm not particularly bothered about defending the article. I am however interested in understanding a more materialist position on the war that manages to read between the lines on the excuses, by Putin on 'historical destiny' and provide something of substance.

 

[The39thStep]

Both Stop The War's campaigning and the general lean of the CPB to end the war at its current stage would provide a de facto victory for Putin, with a 19% take of Ukrainian land having wrecked its infrastructure. Generally speaking if you are not aware of the broad sweep of particularly the Leninist left reluctantly acknowledging Putin shouldna done it while making endless excuses about him being sort of morally in the right and fully buying into the "Ukraine's full of fascists" line then you've not been paying attention - they're all over the place.

I think I manage to pay attention Rob

 

[LDC]

I'm not particularly bothered about defending the article. I am however interested in understanding a more materialist position on the war that manages to read between the lines on the excuses, by Putin on 'historical destiny' and provide something of substance.

Yeah, totally, I think the excuses of 'evil man' etc. are also nonsense. But also so is just stating simply that it's just a war for resources. I suspect the reason why they might like that position is it then meshes very nicely with the NWBTCW position as it can then ignore nationalism, racism, attempts at erasing cultures/people, enforced deportation, torture, etc. and smother it all under a overly simplistic 'working class versus the bosses' version of what's going on. Which I think of course is a dynamic, but how that plays out and how you interact with it on the ground is far from simple when elements of the Russian working class on behalf of their state and ruling class have invaded where you live and are torturing, deporting, repressing and killing you.

 

[LDC]

You. Liked. A. Post. Of. Mine?! OMFG, it's like Putin and Zelensky have made up and the war's over!

 

[The39thStep]

Yeah, totally, I think the excuses of 'evil man' etc. are also nonsense. But also so is just stating simply that it's just a war for resources. I suspect the reason why they might like that position is it then meshes very nicely with the NWBTCW position as it can then ignore nationalism, racism, attempts at erasing cultures/people, enforced deportation, torture, etc. and smother it all under a overly simplistic 'working class versus the bosses' version of what's going on. Which I think of course is a dynamic, but how that plays out and how you interact with it on the ground is far from simple when elements of the Russian working class on behalf of their state and ruling class have invaded where you live and are torturing, deporting, repressing and killing you.

Yup. I think there is a strong economic argument for the invasion and the war. The dehumanising of the w/class within that has been used countless times.

 

[The39thStep]

You. Liked. A. Post. Of. Mine?! OMFG, it's like Putin and Zelensky have made up and the war's over!

I appreciated the reply and agreed with some of it. I've liked some of your posts before I am sure. I wouldn't liken myself to Zelensky and his appalling regime though.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There is always an economic aspect to war, keeping territory, gaining territory, not losing territory. All territory necessarily has resources, human, animal, vegetable and mineral. Also geographic. That does not mean the motives for starting a war have to be primarily dependent on those resources, nor that the motives for continuing a war are resource driven. Nationalism, racism, imperialism, personal rivalries at the top of structured societies, clan/tribal/linguistic conflicts, religious and ideological beliefs. All have their potential place. So too does accident. Misunderstanding. Once conflicts start they may well continue in ways no-one envisaged.

 

[The39thStep]

There is always an economic aspect to war, keeping territory, gaining territory, not losing territory. All territory necessarily has resources, human, animal, vegetable and mineral. Also geographic. That does not mean the motives for starting a war have to be primarily dependent on those resources, nor that the motives for continuing a war are resource driven. Nationalism, racism, imperialism, personal rivalries at the top of structured societies, clan/tribal/linguistic conflicts, religious and ideological beliefs. All have their potential place. So too does accident. Misunderstanding. Once conflicts start they may well continue in ways no-one envisaged.

What about this one?

 

[Cid]

I think with economic factors you also have to take a slightly wider view than 'has deposits, therefore want'. Russia has some of the most extensive rare earth reserves in the world already, but hasn't been able to exploit them. Granted they're apparently in fairly remote bits of Siberia, so technically challenging... But then repairing infrastructure you've just bombed, sourcing, repairing, maintaining mining equipment under sanctions, dealing under sanctions etc. Not a straightforward economic case. Equally from the EU perspective by this logic you'd expect to see Germany as the most active advocate for intervening in the conflict, which they certainly haven't been.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

What about this one?

Kind of you to ask. I see this as a continuation of centuries of Russian imperialism and colonialism. The Soviet Union pretended to be a union of nation states. It wasn't, obviously, but presented itself as such. After WW2 Ukraine and Byelorussia even had seats at the United Nations, as supposedly independent countries. Then Gorbachev came along and Soviet Communism collapsed. Yeltsin for some reason (naivety?, ignorance? Indifference?) let the Union break up. No-one was in a position to stop that happening as central authority had been so severely weakened. Then Putin happened. He wanted to recreate the RussIan empire. That's what he tried to do.
Simplistic? Sometimes things are simple. If Putin was not such a complete fucking arsehole none of this need have happened. Other intellectual analyses may look at things in other ways, economic, social etc, bring in NATO, Nazis, nuclear weapons and other stuff beginnings with 'n'.
It still comes down to Putin's own individual attempt to recreate the Russian empire.