The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[Raheem]

Chomsky tho. "Putin only invaded cos of NATO, not centuries-old, ongoing Russian imperialism, and Ukrainians asking for weapons is just Western propoganda. But I defo support Ukrainians!"

I'm not sure that is Chomsky's exact position, although I can't be bothered to check.

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm not sure that is Chomsky's exact position, although I can't be bothered to check.

It sadly is.

Owen Jones: Because then in a sense, it's this danger that we're arguing something against the expressed will of the Ukrainian people, we're saying that 'This will lead to your violent destruction,' but their argument is 'We need this in order to end a war of aggression, which is a war of subjugation,' how do we square that?"

Noam Chomsky: "Well in the Western propaganda system, what we hear is Ukrainian people want more and more arms. That's the U.S. and British propaganda system."

Noam Chomsky says Ukraine desire for heavy weapons is "Western propaganda"

 

[Cid]

It sadly is.

Owen Jones: Because then in a sense, it's this danger that we're arguing something against the expressed will of the Ukrainian people, we're saying that 'This will lead to your violent destruction,' but their argument is 'We need this in order to end a war of aggression, which is a war of subjugation,' how do we square that?"

Noam Chomsky: "Well in the Western propaganda system, what we hear is Ukrainian people want more and more arms. That's the U.S. and British propaganda system."

Noam Chomsky says Ukraine desire for heavy weapons is "Western propaganda"

Well, according to newsweek... Owen Jones' own opinion is a bit different:

Given my interview with Noam Chomsky is being heavily misrepresented on Twitter, I should emphasise he does support providing Ukraine with weapons for self-defence. You can have disagreements with him (like me!) without misrepresenting him or just outright lying about him.

Follow-up tweets say Chomsky support for arms to Ukraine is 17:16 in interview, had a quick look, but well - 7am on a work day:



Though dunno if I'm pushing back really - more just on the way the point is raised in that Newsweek article.

 

[The39thStep]

disappointing from Lula (though precise quotes on what he has said on the subject are lacking)

Why is the Brazilian left supporting Putin’s Russia?

In the eyes of many Brazilian leftists, the only real imperialism is US imperialism.

www.aljazeera.com

What a curious article. Surely the key factor for the left in South America in how they view conflict is the fact that there isn't a country that the USA hasn't had its grubby and often violent mitts on rather than ' 'the left sees Putin as a successor to the socialist utopia that the USSR was'. The Portuguese press reported Lula actually as saying that Putin should not have invaded but all parties could have averted the war.

"And so. I criticized Putin when he was in Mexico City, saying it was wrong to invade. But I don't think anyone is looking to contribute to peace. People are stoking hatred against Putin. That won't fix it! An agreement needs to be encouraged. But there is a stimulus [to confrontation]! You keep encouraging the guy [ Zelensky ] and he keeps thinking he's the best,” said Lula da Silva.


“He [Zelensky] keeps thinking he's the king of cocada, when in fact they should have had a more serious conversation with him: 'Hey man, you're a good artist, you're a good comedian, but we're not going to make a war for you. appear'. And say to Putin: 'Oh, Putin, you have a lot of weapons, but you don't need to use weapons against Ukraine. Let's talk!'” he concluded.

 

[LDC]

A pretty interesting overview of some Ukrainian groups, their perspectives on the war, and some of the contradictions in it all.

In the Grinder of Geopolitics | Insurgent Notes

insurgentnotes.com

Also E2A this article on Syria/Ukraine and some similarities about the 'left's' response.

On Ukraine-Syria solidarity and the ‘anti-imperialism of idiots’

shado's editor Joey Ayoub explores how many Leftists are failing those caught in the crossfire of Ukraine and other oppressive regimes

shado-mag.com

 

[TopCat]

‘Putin’s terror affects everyone’: anarchists join Ukraine’s war effort

Activists from Kyiv and around world join state forces in fight against totalitarianism

www.theguardian.com

 

[The39thStep]

‘Putin’s terror affects everyone’: anarchists join Ukraine’s war effort

Activists from Kyiv and around world join state forces in fight against totalitarianism

www.theguardian.com

One of the people interviewed Serhiy Movchan was also interviewed by another paper and when asked about Azov said “Generally, Nazis say they are not Nazis,” the anarchist Sergei Movchan concludes with a smile and a shrug.".

He also wrote a quite thoughtful and reflective article in 2017 on Decommunisation in Ukraine

However, under decommunisation, the demand for social justice cannot be expressed in left-wing terms of class conflict or struggle for economic equality. And the political forces that could pose the question in these terms — even those who are not fond of the Soviet era at all — are traditionally marginalised. Thus, in the end, the avant-garde of the struggle for social justice is represented by…the right. Or social nationalists, as some of them like to call themselves, insisting that it is something completely different from national socialism.

There is No End to Decommunisation – Political Critique [DISCONTINUED]

politicalcritique.org

 

[The39thStep]

Some further thoughts on the 'new left ' in Ukraine post 2014

Contradictions of Post-Soviet Ukraine and Failure of Ukraine’s New Left - Lefteast

Dossier 1989 Thirty Years Later: Several profound contradictions have defined the dynamics of Ukrainian economy, politics and society since the collapse of the Soviet Union: the contradiction between transnational and local capital, those between factions of the local capital, Ukrainian national...

lefteast.org

 

[LDC]

Not had a chance to read or listen to this yet, but the website usually has some interesting and worthwhile stuff on.

Misconceptions about imperialism, and anarchist collective traumas

Ever since the beginning of the Russian invasion against Ukraine, we have seen statements by anarchists, communists and leftists not from Ukraine, on how Ukrainian anarchists, communists and leftists should not defend themselves against attack of Putin, but lay down their arms and flee instead...

avtonom.org

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Chomsky tho. "Putin only invaded cos of NATO, not centuries-old, ongoing Russian imperialism, and Ukrainians asking for weapons is just Western propoganda. But I defo support Ukrainians!"

Chomsky has even described the invasion as an 'experiment by the US' or some shit. He's been a disappointment for a while, for me particularly with his backing of the Democrats - and now theres stuff like this - which has actually always been there to a degree. He seems to be somewhat an apologist for the rival imperialist bloc to the US. He really should know better.

 

[Dystopiary]

Chomsky has even described the invasion as an 'experiment by the US' or some shit. He's been a disappointment for a while, for me particularly with his backing of the Democrats - and now theres stuff like this - which has actually always been there to a degree. He seems to be somewhat an apologist for the rival imperialist bloc to the US. He really should know better.

Yeah, he made a lot of sense about US imperialism but has been pretty much a one-trick pony. He gets asked far too often about stuff that's beyone his ken, and speaks over people whose lives and culture are far more relevant, eg, Chomsky Is No Friend of the Syrian Revolution

 

[nogojones]

Chomsky has even described the invasion as an 'experiment by the US' or some shit. He's been a disappointment for a while, for me particularly with his backing of the Democrats - and now theres stuff like this - which has actually always been there to a degree. He seems to be somewhat an apologist for the rival imperialist bloc to the US. He really should know better.

He's the same age as me mum and she's totally fucking scoobied. That he has any analysis at all is pretty good going.

 

[hitmouse]

This sounds quite interesting, coming up in Bristol:

UKRAINE DEBATE & FUNDRAISER

Discussion & Debate: Class Based Anti-War approaches to the ongoing events in Ukraine.

www.eventbrite.co.uk

Bristol ABC listing the speakers as:
"Operation Solidarity, Ukraine
Denis Pilash, Commons Journal and Sotsialnyi Rukh, Ukraine
Angry Workers
Plan C and Transnational Social Strike
Workers Liberty and Ukraine Solidarity."

Although given the range of opinions in AWW, their speaker could be coming from a whole range of different perspectives? Would also be nice if they clarified what the fundraiser's for.

 

[LDC]

This sounds quite interesting, coming up in Bristol:

UKRAINE DEBATE & FUNDRAISER

Discussion & Debate: Class Based Anti-War approaches to the ongoing events in Ukraine.

www.eventbrite.co.uk

Bristol ABC listing the speakers as:
"Operation Solidarity, Ukraine
Denis Pilash, Commons Journal and Sotsialnyi Rukh, Ukraine
Angry Workers
Plan C and Transnational Social Strike
Workers Liberty and Ukraine Solidarity."

Although given the range of opinions in AWW, their speaker could be coming from a whole range of different perspectives? Would also be nice if they clarified what the fundraiser's for.

The AWW person speaking is likely to be the writer of this part of the debate Fragments of a debate amongst AngryWorkers on the war in Ukraine - Angry Workers and I think it's fair to say they're much more from the anti-war strongly NWBTCW bit of the debate, although that's simplistic, and teasing out what that means in the current situation has been pretty complex and tricky tbh, and we've had some pretty hard disagreements.

Benefit at Quakers Meeting House, surely money to buy arms for the anarchists?

 

[hitmouse]

The AWW person speaking is likely to be the writer of this part of the debate Fragments of a debate amongst AngryWorkers on the war in Ukraine - Angry Workers and I think it's fair to say they're much more from the anti-war strongly NWBTCW bit of the debate, although that's simplistic, and teasing out what that means in the current situation has been pretty complex and tricky tbh, and we've had some pretty hard disagreements.

Ah cool - I sort of think good on the organisers for that decision, will probably make for a more interesting discussion all round, since I imagine they may have a few points of disagreement with the AWL etc speakers.

 

[Shechemite]

Benefit at Quakers Meeting House, surely money to buy arms for the anarchists?

You’d think they’d keep quiet about that

 

[8ball]

Chomsky has even described the invasion as an 'experiment by the US' or some shit. He's been a disappointment for a while, for me particularly with his backing of the Democrats - and now theres stuff like this - which has actually always been there to a degree. He seems to be somewhat an apologist for the rival imperialist bloc to the US. He really should know better.

I saw an interview with him the other day and he seemed quite unambiguous in terms of the Russians initiating the invasion and being totally in the wrong.

 

[The39thStep]

A short documentary on The Resistance Committee volunteer group, antifascist Kiev-Arsenal and anarchists ( don't know how to disable the age restriction but it works on my phone and PC)

 

[hitmouse]

London Makhnovists are back:

Events

Coming up:

londonmakhnovists.com

London Makhnovists (@londonmakhnovists) • Instagram photos and videos

159 Followers, 36 Following, 9 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from London Makhnovists (@londonmakhnovists)

www.instagram.com

 

[srb7677]

The current notion that the left should always automatically oppose all war at all times is misguided.

It is a matter of historical record that there have been times when the left recognised that it was time to fight, notably in the Spanish Civil War and in World War 2. The evils of murderous Nazism and fascism had to be taken down.

Whether or not the Ukraine is such a moment is a debateable point, but we'd have much more moral clarity if we ourselves in the west were not so hypocritically complicit in foreign aggressions. For example supplying arms to a Saudi regime involved in aggression against Yemen, and supporting Israel in it's tyranous occupations and annexations, not to mention punitive military operations. And we ourselves launched a war of aggression against Iraq. Makes it morally questionable and hypocritical for us to try and take the moral high ground over Ukraine, however just it's cause may or may not be.

 

[8ball]

For example supplying arms to a Saudi regime involved in aggression against Yemen, and supporting Israel in it's tyranous occupations and annexations, not to mention punitive military operations. And we ourselves launched a war of aggression against Iraq.

I didn’t do any of that.

 

[srb7677]

I didn’t do any of that.

Of course you didn't and neither did I but you know exactly what I was saying because you are not stupid. When talking of "we" and "us" I was referring to us as a nation, not you or anyone else personally as an individual.

I shouldn't have had to point that out.

 

[maomao]

Of course you didn't and neither did I but you know exactly what I was saying because you are not stupid. When talking of "we" and "us" I was referring to us as a nation, not you or anyone else personally as an individual.

I shouldn't have had to point that out.

It's fair comment in the context of a reply to your nonsense post. You've identified 'the left' and 'the west' as the same people.

 

[srb7677]

It's fair comment in the context of a reply to your nonsense post. You've identified 'the left' and 'the west' as the same people.

That is patently untrue. Nowhere have I said that.

I referred to we ourselves in the west, the clear inference being that I was referring to our nations. If you have chosen to misunderstand that then that is your wilful choice, especially now that I have clarified my meaning for you.

 

[8ball]

That is patently untrue. Nowhere have I said that.

You did start with the comment about “the left”, which became “the west” in the third paragraph in a way that left the linkage unclear.

 

[maomao]

That is patently untrue. Nowhere have I said that.

You've said that taking the moral high ground over Ukraine is hypocritical because of Iraq. I'm not sure who you think supported the Iraq war and is against defending Ukraine (I don't say 'against the war in Ukraine' because hopefully we all are in at least one sense).

 

[srb7677]

You did start with the comment about “the left”.

I acknowledge that I was not clear enough but am clarifying now that when talking about "we" I was referring to western nations and not specifically the left.

I will apologise for not making that explicit enough. I am well aware that the left here has been on the right side of the argument on all those issues so was in no way trying to suggest that the left was complicit.

 

[8ball]

I acknowledge that I was not clear enough but am clarifying now that when talking about "we" I was referring to western nations and not specifically the left.

I will apologise for not making that explicit enough. I am well aware that the left here has been on the right side of the argument on all those issues so was in no way trying to suggest that the left was complicit.

No probs. I was a bit slapdash in conflating myself with “the left” in my initial response tbf.

 

[srb7677]

You've said that taking the moral high ground over Ukraine is hypocritical because of Iraq. I'm not sure who you think supported the Iraq war and is against defending Ukraine (I don't say 'against the war in Ukraine' because hopefully we all are in at least one sense).

I was talking about us as a nation, particularly our media and ruling class. I was not trying to suggest that the left supported such hypocrisy.

My intervention in this debate appears to have been misunderstood because I did not clarify when I was speaking about the left and when I was speaking about our nation and it's rulers. I assumed it was obvious but clearly assumed too much.

 

[maomao]

I was talking about us as a nation, particularly our media and ruling class. I was not trying to suggest that the left supported such hypocrisy

You mean the media and ruling class that are entirely behind the defence of Ukraine?