The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[Raheem]

How can my views be defeatist when I'm neither a combatant nor a victim of the invasion? And neither are you or anybody else on here. Grimly nihilistic maybe, but I long ago came to the conclusion that the world is not a nice place and that things rarely turn out like you want. In fact it's a bit of a fucking cesspit.

I have read a lot of what you've probably read about the war. And like you-and like many of the experts (whose conclusions are also inevitably coloured by their political views and prejudices)-I still can't possibly know either what the exact Russian war aims are nor what will (as opposed to might) happen.

Russia did not clearly state their war aims ≠ It is impossible to have any clue about what Russia's war aims were.

 

[mojo pixy]

Giving it succour how exactly? What are they dissuading their fellow keyboard warriors on the opposing side from doing?

This is just stupid. Try having a little look around in 2022 and having a think about things instead of point scoring.

And giving it support how exactly except in words-which, of course, have no material effect?

Your words may have no material effect, but others have a little more reach than you.

The online world is not the entire world.

Thanks for this insight, though it seems ironic to share this wisdom in the err online world. I wonder though, are there any examples of people using online platforms to create social division and stoke up conflict? Probably not, you seem so sure that's irrelevant to this.

 

[RD2003]

This is just stupid. Try having a little look around in 2022 and having a think about things instead of point scoring.



Your words may have no material effect, but others have a little more reach than you.



Thanks for this insight, though it seems ironic to share this wisdom in the err online world. I wonder though, are there any examples of people using online platforms to create social division and stoke up conflict? Probably not, you seem so sure that's irrelevant to this.

I have had a look around, and I still can't see how trolls, conspiracy theorists and Staliniists etc etc are having much of an effect on the real world attitudes to the war, where the dominant narrative of government and media is wholly dominant.

So there are people online trying to stoke up social conflict. And? It isn't as if there is only one acceptable view of the world. There was a time when the radical left used to try and stoke up social conflict and division in order to try and create conditions where decisive change could occur.

 

[RD2003]

Russia did not clearly state their war aims ≠ It is impossible to have any clue about what Russia's war aims were.

People don't have a clue, they merely have an opinion.

 

[mojo pixy]

I have had a look around, and I still can't see how trolls, conspiracy theorists and Staliniists etc etc are having much of an effect on the real world attitudes to the war, where the dominant narrative of government and media is wholly dominant.

So there are people online trying to stoke up social conflict. And? It isn't as if there is only one acceptable view of the world. There was a time when the radical left used to try and stoke up social conflict and division in order to try and create conditions where decisive change could occur.

OK fair enough then. Im sure it'll all be fine

 

[zahir]

This looks like the latest version of Russia's war aims.

Russia-Ukraine war latest: UN secretary general set to meet Putin and Zelenskiy – as it happened

Invasion of Ukraine ‘intended only as a beginning’, president says, as Moldova summons Russian ambassador over military commander’s comments on breakaway region

www.theguardian.com

A Russian military official is being quoted this morning saying that it intends to control the whole of southern Ukraine.

The Interfax news agency reports the deputy commander of Russia’s central military district, Rustam Minnekayev, said it plans to take full control of Donbas and southern Ukraine as part of the second phase of the military operation.

Reuters notes he was also cited as saying that Russia planned to forge a land corridor between Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014, and Donbas.

And in a line that will be concerning to Chișinău, he is also reported to have said that control of Ukraine’s south will give Russia another gateway to Moldova’s breakaway region of Transnistria.

“Control over the south of Ukraine is another way to Transnistria, where there is also evidence that the Russian-speaking population is being oppressed,” Tass quoted Minnekayev as saying at a meeting in Russia’s central Sverdlovsk region.

 

[RD2003]

OK fair enough then. Im sure it'll all be fine

Are you expecting some kind of alt right/ conspiraloon/ red-brown-induced (magically via website) apocalypse?

 

[zahir]

Thread on Jacobin's position.

 

[mojo pixy]

Are you expecting some kind of alt right/ conspiraloon/ red-brown-induced (magically via website) apocalypse?

No no, I'm sure it'll be OK. We'll just 'oppose war', and argue among ourselves, and sooner or later everyone in Ukraine will die or leave, and you can mither on and on about the historical inevitability of it all and how its a good thing really because they were all nazis anyway, and the arms industry will disappear because nobody dares to fight Russia and we'll all just hide in identity politics and conspiracism till

 

[RD2003]

No no, I'm sure it'll be OK. We'll just 'oppose war', and argue among ourselves, and sooner or later everyone in Ukraine will die or leave, and you can mither on and on about the historical inevitability of it all and how its a good thing really because they were all nazis anyway, and the arms industry will disappear because nobody dares to fight Russia and we'll all just hide in identity politics and conspiracism till

You're arguing with an imaginary enemy about imaginary stuff.

 

[mojo pixy]

You're arguing with an imaginary enemy about imaginary stuff.

Have a look in a fucking mirror you prannet

 

[hitmouse]

Discussion with Syrian and Ukrainian activists. Some of it is in Ukrainian but has been translated in the transcript.

Transcript: Our Wounds Are Bridges

This looks interesting, thank you - posting partly to thank you, partly to try and stop it from being buried under pages and pages of RD2ery.

Fwiw, here's a motion just passed by a union in Minneapolis:

CWA 7250 E-Board: Solidarity with Ukrainian Resistance! Russian Troops Out Now!

Communications Workers of America Local 7250, CWA, Labor Union

www.cwa7250.org

 

[RD2003]

Have a look in a fucking mirror you prannet

I'm not the one imagining that society is ruled by online trolls and conspiracists.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not the one imagining that society is ruled by online trolls and conspiracists.

You're getting worse ffs, have a break.

 

[RD2003]

You're getting worse ffs

Stop following about unless you find something to say that relates to the real world.

 

[mojo pixy]

Stop following about unless you find something to say that relates to the real world.

lol you think I'm following you? Well, I am now .. be careful what you wish for

 

[RD2003]

lol you think I'm following you? Well, I am now .. be careful what you wish for

Why? Are you a serial killer?

 

[Pickman's model]

lol you think I'm following you? Well, I am now .. be careful what you wish for

you'll regret that decision if you actually read his fact-free miserabilist tosh

 

[Brainaddict]

Interesting thread here, I haven't been following Jacobin's output but on the face of it some reasonable complaints

 

[mojo pixy]

Why? Are you a serial killer?

Everyone needs a hobby

No, seriously, I'm just a really annoying person with some unorthodox views but a reasonably picturesque way with words. Pretty standard for urban tbh.

 

[Wilf]

People don't have a clue, they merely have an opinion.

Come on, come on, your standards are dropping. Needs more on the grand sweep of history, the follies of the left, maybe a bit more on the tragedies of human nature (with a side order of unintended consequences and florid fatalism). To get your pomposity levels back up to scratch, I suggest you start each post with 'my dear boy...'.

 

[frogwoman]

Those tables don't look too comfortable, hope your back's all right

 

[RD2003]

Come on, come on, your standards are dropping. Needs more on the grand sweep of history, the follies of the left, maybe a bit more on the tragedies of human nature (with a side order of unintended consequences and florid fatalism). To get your pomposity levels back up to scratch, I suggest you start each post with 'my dear boy...'.

You know, you're right. I should conform to accepted standards.


'Boo hoo, isn't it just terrible what's going on?'

'Grr, a nasty man is doing nasty things to innocent people. Seemingly on his own because he just feels like it.' (Types this while acting as if it's never happened before, anywhere.)

'I have recently educated myself to the standards of a top military analyst/ historian (take your pick.) So here is what is going to unfold.'


Will this do for starters, and can I join the war enthusiasts' club?

 

[YouSir]

You know, you're right. I should conform to accepted standards.


'Boo hoo, isn't it just terrible what's going on?'

'Grr, a nasty man is doing nasty things to innocent people. Seemingly on his own because he just feels like it.' (Types this while acting as if it's never happened before, anywhere.)

'I have recently educated myself to the standards of a top military analyst/ historian (take your pick.) So here is what is going to unfold.'


Will this do for starters, and can I join the war enthusiasts' club?

You should get yourself on Twitter, seems like you'd get a lot more out of it.

 

[RD2003]

You should get yourself on Twitter, seems like you'd get a lot more out of it.

I hate Twitter.

 

[YouSir]

I hate Twitter.

Doesn't stop anyone else who uses it.

 

[Dystopiary]

Blistering and absolutely justified takedown (in German) of people he calls "lumpen pacifists" by Sascha Lobo:

Sascha Lobo zum Ukraine-Krieg: Der deutsche Lumpen-Pazifismus

Nothing better can happen to the Russian fascist leader Putin than those Western leaders who say, directly or indirectly, that Ukraine is none of our business. The lumpen pacifists have some powerful partners, especially in politics and even more specifically in the SPD, the Peace Party.

Lumpen pacifists may not be very familiar with reality, but they are not primarily naïve, as they are often accused of. Naivety is unpleasant, but no shame. Lumpen pacifists are first and foremost self-righteous. They are people who put on a jacket and immediately forget what it means to freeze. People who follow their chair circle principles even at the price of the lives of third parties. People who don't want to do anything in the face of Russian attack horror in Ukraine, exactly: nothing.

 

[Lurdan]

There's an English translation of the Sascha Loba article at the Ukraine Long Read subreddit: German Lumpen-Pacifism.

 

[zahir]

NO to NATO, or the identity crisis of the Spanish left - New Politics

Explaining the positions of the Spanish left on Ukraine

newpol.org

If what was really at stake for the Spanish left was the internal balance of forces of the Ukrainian resistance, wouldn’t it be more logical to establish close ties with the anti-capitalist, anti-patriarchal and anti-racist left in Ukraine to strengthen it as much as possible? The problem for the Spanish left is that this particular Ukrainian left, the real one, is of no use to them, because it does not fit into their demarcation strategy. In order for them to be able to keep telling the same story, it is necessary to silence and make invisible the progressive sectors of the Ukrainian resistance, denying them any concrete solidarity, which has the consequence of weakening the left in Ukraine.

 

[zahir]

Ukraine video dispatch: Anarchists Against Putin - International Anarchist Mobilization - Freedom News

Freedom is pleased to present the next Ukraine video dispatch produced for us by film-maker and journalist Alexis Daloumis. Alexis spent last few weeks in Kiyv, and previously you may have heard of him due to his other production, Belkî Sibê: A Journey Through The Syrian War and Rojava...

freedomnews.org.uk

The main piece of my reportage in Poland and Ukraine is about the practical mobilisation of Anarchists, their support for and their participation in the resistance against the Putin Regime’s invasion. This video takes place in Poland and it’s the first part of that main piece. It explores the response of the anarchist milieu to the war in Ukraine, across the country and internationally. How there was a unanimous opposition to Russian imperialism and how this state of emergency united the movement, despite previous division and conflict, towards a common goal. The second part, coming soon, will take place in Ukraine.