The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[RD2003]

Last bit, well look at what the Russian State is doing in Ukraine as part of its war to 'de-nazify' Ukraine, I think that has elements of red brown stuff in it for sure. And in the US the related alt-right influence is huge. Outside that it's influence is there in the left (and outside it) in this country for sure (look at the Putin lovers thread on here, or bits of the Labour party support) but yeah quantifying it's successes would be hard, but I think some of the distrust, misinformation, and general cynicism towards what we talked about in the first sentences can in part be put down to that.

It's no accident that the term red-brown seems to have been coined in the circumstances of resistance to the gangster capitalism being created in the early post-Soviet Russia. While it is doubtless a feature in current Russian thinking at elite level, it has little international reach outside of those fringe groups yapping at the heels of mainstream labour movements, and no appeal in the wider working class.

I haven't noticed any red component of the US alt-right, however.

 

[LDC]

What's more, the attempt to defeat Russia in the current war could in itself create more war. This is why the world is in such a dengerous situation with no clear way out.

You do seem so very sure about all this and the outcomes?

I mean, yeah, that might come true and happen, it's certainly a risk - although plenty doubt it's likely. But what was the other option? Ukraine surrender as soon as it was attacked? How are we sure that wouldn't embolden the Russian military and State and lead to a bigger or further war down the line? Unless the answer is for every State to surrender immediately it is attacked? Would you think it should forcibly disarm it's population so they can't resist as well, lest they encourage more war?

 

[RD2003]

View attachment 319468


Anyway, sorry to distract from this latest round of The RD2 Show Featuring RD2, but here's a few more recent links:

Private Site

enoughisenough14.org

The Final Straw interview with Maria from ABC Kyiv and Mira from the Kharkiv hardcore scene is now available as a PDF, as well as in just general transcribed format:

Zines | The Final Straw Radio Podcast

thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org

Eric King Speaks | 2 Radical Ukrainian Voices | The Final Straw Radio Podcast

thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org

It isn't only, or even primarily, tankies* who point out that a prolonged war will only cause more deaths and bloodshed, while running the risk of it developing intoa much wider conflict.

*As with the mythical red-browns, tankies barely exist outside the far-left bubble these days.

 

[hitmouse]

I haven't noticed any red component of the US alt-right, however.

Happy to help!

 

[Rimbaud]

Allegedly.

However, Putin is not acting alone. He represents, as I said above, a centuries-old outlook on Russia's place in the world which usually proves dominant there, and will not die even if temporarily defeated. What's more, the attempt to defeat Russia in the current war could in itself create more war. This is why the world is in such a dengerous situation with no clear way out.

There is a problem that Russia is a former imperial power which sees itself as a victim because its empire fell apart.

Other imperial powers in Europe have gone through at least some process of reflection and reassessment of their imperial history. Germany has undergone significant cultural denazification but other powers have gone through similar processes but softer. Russia is the only one which does not seem to accept on any level that former colonies may have any fair complaint against it, and sees itself as a victim for losing its Empire and wants to restore it. The equivalent is if the UK was trying to invade Ireland with plans to restore the British Empire, or if France wanted to invade Algeria, or if Italy was looking to conquer Libya with rhetoric about the Roman Empire. It is only unthinkable because their societies have generally acknowledged that territorial expansion by force is bad, but Russia has not.

If Russia has this outlook on the world then that outlook needs to die and they need to be told that in no uncertain terms. Russian success in Ukraine will feed into that worldview, a failure might have a chance of prompting a reassessment of the folly of Russian imperialism and force them to accept that they have no future as a relevant country if all their neighbours hate them.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but you seem to be making a strong case as to why it matters to all of Europe that Russia fails in Ukraine.

 

[NoXion]

A morality-based approach then, if you like. Makes no difference.

'Boo-hoo isn't this just awful?' Yes it cunting well is. But it gets nobody anywhere and will merely be repeated next time around...

Your disasturbating isn't getting anywhere either.

 

[RD2003]

You do seem so very sure about all this and the outcomes?

I mean, yeah, that might come true and happen, it's certainly a risk - although plenty doubt it's likely. But what was the other option? Ukraine surrender as soon as it was attacked? How are we sure that wouldn't embolden the Russian military and State and lead to a bigger or further war down the line? Unless the answer is for every State to surrender immediately it is attacked? Would you think it should forcibly disarm it's population so they can't resist as well, lest they encourage more war?

I haven't advocated that anybody should surrender, as opposed to all efforts made to cobble together a peace agreement being before the slaughter gets yet more out of hand. And yes, such an agreement will satisfy nobody completely but buys time for further efforts to be made to head off further conflict as far as it can possibly be done.

I do think the possibility of this war should have been cut off before it started by Ukraine adopting permanent neutral status. Once they were diverted from this possibility, war was probably inevitable.

I still struggle to comprehend the logic of the widely-held view that Russia, while proving itself incapable of even conquering Ukraine (assuming that this was actually the aim) is nonetheless going to march roughshod over a host of other states, including some now in NATO.

 

[RD2003]

Your disasturbating isn't getting anywhere either.

I haven't claimed that anything is 'getting somewhere.'

 

[RD2003]

There is a problem that Russia is a former imperial power which sees itself as a victim because its empire fell apart.

Other imperial powers in Europe have gone through at least some process of reflection and reassessment of their imperial history. Germany has undergone significant cultural denazification but other powers have gone through similar processes but softer. Russia is the only one which does not seem to accept on any level that former colonies may have any fair complaint against it, and sees itself as a victim for losing its Empire and wants to restore it. The equivalent is if the UK was trying to invade Ireland with plans to restore the British Empire, or if France wanted to invade Algeria, or if Italy was looking to conquer Libya with rhetoric about the Roman Empire. It is only unthinkable because their societies have generally acknowledged that territorial expansion by force is bad, but Russia has not.

If Russia has this outlook on the world then that outlook needs to die and they need to be told that in no uncertain terms. Russian success in Ukraine will feed into that worldview, a failure might have a chance of prompting a reassessment of the folly of Russian imperialism and force them to accept that they have no future as a relevant country if all their neighbours hate them.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but you seem to be making a strong case as to why it matters to all of Europe that Russia fails in Ukraine.

Better minds than ours have explained the Russian view of its unique place in the world. As I said, it never seems to go away, and usually re-emerges no matter what. There is little the outside world can do about it, and outside interference in Russian affairs usually ends in tears-as we are currently seeing. A large component of the Russian imperial outlook stems from a view, right or wrong, that their enormous land mass is permanently vulnerable to attack and invasion-and an understandable long-term memory about the vast suffering and decimation of the population when this has happened.

The post-Soviet experience has already taught many Russians that they are destined to always be treated with suspicion, if not as an outright enemy, even when on its knees. There is also a widespread understanding that the relatively favourable conditions that existed for other countries after loss of empire do not exist for them. As I said above, there is a dominant strand in Russian political thinking that will never accept its relegation to the status of just another country. I am not saying that this is a good thing, just that there is little anybody outside Russia (and probably in Russia too) can do about it.

It boils down to an argument between what should happen and what does/will happen.

 

[Wilf]

Do you contact the Ukrainian working class by email, or is it, under the circumstances, a PO Box address?

They sometimes struggle to get a signal, but gaining a wider perspective Putin, the Russian state and neoliberalism is one of the hot topics in the cellars at the moment. The occasional brave soul nips out and I do my best to pass on the latest bulletin. I've emphasised that it's best if they stick with the weapons they have and they seemed okay with that.

 

[RD2003]

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Happy to help!

And how much real world support and influence do the 'Traditionalist Workers Party' and this Greenwald bloke enjoy?

 

[hitmouse]

And how much real world support and influence do the 'Traditionalist Workers Party' and this Greenwald bloke enjoy?

I do not think that the US alt-right enjoy very much real world support and influence in April 2022, and if you had asked "how much real world support and influence do the US alt-right currently enjoy" I would have said that. But you said you hadn't noticed the US alt-right having a red element, so I was setting you straight on that point. I don't think there has ever been a point when said movement has had a tremendous amount of force, but if you look at the period of time when it was at its height, from mid-2016 to mid-2017 or so, Heimbach and the TWP were a pretty important component of it.

 

[Rimbaud]

Better minds than ours have explained the Russian view of its unique place in the world. As I said, it never seems to go away, and usually re-emerges no matter what. There is little the outside world can do about it, and outside interference in Russian affairs usually ends in tears-as we are currently seeing. A large component of the Russian imperial outlook stems from a view, right or wrong, that their enormous land mass is permanently vulnerable to attack and invasion-and an understandable long-term memory about the vast suffering and decimation of the population when this has happened.

The post-Soviet experience has already taught many Russians that they are destined to always be treated with suspicion, if not as an outright enemy, even when on its knees. There is also a widespread understanding that the relatively favourable conditions that existed for other countries after loss of empire do not exist for them. As I said above, there is a dominant strand in Russian political thinking that will never accept its relegation to the status of just another country. I am not saying that this is a good thing, just that there is little anybody outside Russia (and probably in Russia too) can do about it.

It boils down to an argument between what should happen and what does/will happen.

Life has evolved from amoebas to fish, and to all plant life and dinosaurs and birds, to mammals, humans have evolved from primates to creating tools to hunt, inventing agriculture, building towns, industry, flying to the moon and developing the Internet so everyone at any point on earth can discuss with anyone else instantaneously, the climate is changing and what parts of earth are habitable will change drastically in our life times, tectonic plates shift endlessly so one day Russia will cease to exist as a geographic entity, and the sun will one day die... but the Russian state reassessing their imperial mindset is against the innate laws of the universe and we can never hope to change it, ever.

 

[The39thStep]

I do not think that the US alt-right enjoy very much real world support and influence in April 2022, and if you had asked "how much real world support and influence do the US alt-right currently enjoy" I would have said that. But you said you hadn't noticed the US alt-right having a red element, so I was setting you straight on that point. I don't think there has ever been a point when said movement has had a tremendous amount of force, but if you look at the period of time when it was at its height, from mid-2016 to mid-2017 or so, Heimbach and the TWP were a pretty important component of it.

Most fascist movements historically have had a 'red element' ie an anti capitalist veneer to appeal to the w/class and typically pose themselves as in between the left and right.

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah, I'd say that's one of the things that made Heimbach and the TWP potentially quite threatening and worth taking seriously back when they were around - the Richard Spencer/Milo end of things was very much by and for rich college kids who didn't think being a Republican was edgy enough, whereas the TWP lot had much more of a focus on trying to reach out to impoverished white working class people in places like rural Tennesse who didn't feel represented by the main parties. Good thing they ended up going completely to shit, though.

 

[RD2003]

Life has evolved from amoebas to fish, and to all plant life and dinosaurs and birds, to mammals, humans have evolved from primates to creating tools to hunt, inventing agriculture, building towns, industry, flying to the moon and developing the Internet so everyone at any point on earth can discuss with anyone else instantaneously, the climate is changing and what parts of earth are habitable will change drastically in our life times, tectonic plates shift endlessly so one day Russia will cease to exist as a geographic entity, and the sun will one day die... but the Russian state reassessing their imperial mindset is against the innate laws of the universe and we can never hope to change it, ever.

If you mean 'we'as in me, you and anybody else on these boards, then there is not a thing we can do to change an ingrained political culture in a country few of us even really understand. If you mean 'we' in the sense of people with various forms of power and influence in the west, then this will only fuel Russian nationalist sentiment, which may recede due to certain events, but will always return (and 'we' in the military sense means sucide.)

Politics doesn't evolve and follows no innate laws. Despite the illusions of universalising ideologies, only a minority of the world is democratic in any meaningful sense, and on shaky foundations in much of where it does exist. Under the impact of the world's approaching multiple crises, there is as much chance of our own political systems/cultures breaking up (and almost definitely not in a good way) as there is of Russia's.

 

[LDC]

Pretty good list of articles here from Three Way Fight

Antifascist Resources on Ukraine

Moscow protest against Russia's invasion of Ukraine, 24 February 2022 The sign at left reads “ No war! Putin go away! ” In this post we of...

threewayfight.blogspot.com

 

[mojo pixy]

Fucking hell RD2003 you do post a load of old shit don't you? I mean I'm sure I do too, but at least I don't go on and on and on about it. And stop with the disingenuous "better minds than yours or mine" crap; "better minds than mine" is perfectly fine, and probably correct.

Probably when soldiers arrive in your town and start raping and killing your friends and family, then maybe you'll find out who your allies actually are. You may even find you don't question the politics too closely of the people shooting on your behalf and helping you escape the slaughter.

As you say, we're pontificating in comfort. Perhaps one day that will change, and then we'll see who's who and what's what.

The 'left' is pissing me right off just now and I can't currently imagine asking anarchists for any kind of support if the shit hit the fan.

 

[RD2003]

Fucking hell RD2003 you do post a load of old shit don't you? I mean I'm sure I do too, but at least I don't go on and on and on about it. And stop with the disingenuous "better minds than yours or mine" crap; "better minds than mine" is perfectly fine, and probably correct.

Probably when soldiers arrive in your town and start raping and killing your friends and family, then maybe you'll find out who your allies actually are. You may even find you don't question the politics too closely of the people shooting on your behalf and helping you escape the slaughter.

As you say, we're pontificating in comfort. Perhaps one day that will change, and then we'll see who's who and what's what.

The 'left' is pissing me right off just now and I can't currently imagine asking anarchists for any kind of support if the shit hit the fan.

OK, not better minds than your or mine... How else can I put it? How about 'people who get to write books and give lectures on a subject as opposed to people just posting on a message board?' There must be lots of ways of putting it.

As for going on and on, there's a sizeable number on here who posts are every bit as repetitive as mine, not least on the main war thread. If you don't like me, go find somebody you do like.

Meanwhile, yeah, bring some war here. Then we'll see what separates the men from the boys. Some of us might even get to love the fascists.

You seem to be missing the fact, that I seem to be one of the few here who has no enthusiasm at all for the slaughter currently taking place (and have pointed out that there are other slaughters happening elsewhere with almost nobody batting an eyelid.)

 

[Rimbaud]

If you mean 'we'as in me, you and anybody else on these boards, then there is not a thing we can do to change an ingrained political culture in a country few of us even really understand. If you mean 'we' in the sense of people with various forms of power and influence in the west, then this will only fuel Russian nationalist sentiment, which may recede due to certain events, but will always return (and 'we' in the military sense means sucide.)

Politics doesn't evolve and follows no innate laws. Despite the illusions of universalising ideologies, only a minority of the world is democratic in any meaningful sense, and on shaky foundations in much of where it does exist. Under the impact of the world's approaching multiple crises, there is as much chance of our own political systems/cultures breaking up (and almost definitely not in a good way) as there is of Russia's.

And if the Russian state believes it is entitled to invade their neighbours and acts in such a manner, then it merely fuels anti-Russian sentiment and closer ties to NATO in those neighbours. I don't accept that it is the responsibility of Europe and Russia's immediate neighbours to not take measures to defend themselves lest they provoke Russia in doing so. It is the responsibility of Russia, on the contrary, to give their neighbours confidence that they don't need to be afraid of them.

Russia is a country doomed to become irrelevant if it continues on this path. It is the choice of Russia whether they change the current path or not, but if they don't, that isn't really a problem for anyone outside of Russia. If helping Ukraine defeat Russia will inflame Russian nationalism, so what? It is better than a Russian victory which will definitely inflame nationalism even more, and allow them to be in a position of strength where they can do no more damage.

Russia's population is not much more than Japan's and their total GDP is little more than the richest 2 out of Germany's 16 states. They have gas and oil but the world is trying to move away from these so they won't be as vital as they once were in the future. They just aren't a relevant power anymore. If they fail in Ukraine, then they will be militarily irrelevant too. So it doesn't really matter if losing will inflame Russian nationalism or not as they won't be in a position to do any damage. If they win though, then they will be in a position to damage Europe further.

 

[mojo pixy]

OK, not better minds than your or mine... How else can I put it? How about 'people who get to write books and give lectures on a subject as opposed to people just posting on a message board?' There must be lots of ways of putting it.

Not everyone who writes and lectures is brilliant, not everyone brilliant writes or lectures, so there's that. Your tone is extremely patronising and sarcastic, and you don't seem to be winning many people over. I'll let you think on that, I'm just saying.

Meanwhile, yeah, bring some war here. Then we'll see what separates the men from the boys. Some of us might even get to love the fascists.

This is what I mean. What's the point? It's not reflective, it's knee-jerk snark and it's self-defeating. War will favour fascism, and it seems the left is more interested in internal point scoring and (dare I say it) virtue signalling. Yes war is shit. Yes, fascism is shit. What would you do .. what would we do .. if both came here, in full effect? Not a question there is an easy answer to, sadly.

You seem to be missing the fact, that I seem to be one of the few here who has no enthusiasm at all for the slaughter currently taking place (and have pointed out that there are other slaughters happening elsewhere with almost nobody batting an eyelid.)

Yeah, no. Nobody here as far as I can tell favours war. But there is a war, and we can't stop it, and it may well escalate or arrive upon our shores in some unexpected form, and with no input from anyone here.

So, what next?

 

[RD2003]

DP

 

[RD2003]

Not everyone who writes and lectures is brilliant, not everyone brilliant writes or lectures, so there's that. Your tone is extremely patronising and sarcastic, and you don't seem to be winning many people over. I'll let you think on that, I'm just saying.


This is what I mean. What's the point? It's not reflective, it's knee-jerk snark and it's self-defeating. War will favour fascism, and it seems the left is more interested in internal point scoring and (dare I say it) virtue signalling. Yes war is shit. Yes, fascism is shit. What would you do .. what would we do .. if both came here, in full effect? Not a question there is an easy answer to, sadly.



Yeah, no. Nobody here as far as I can tell favours war. But there is a war, and we can't stop it, and it may well escalate or arrive upon our shores in some unexpected form, and with no input from anyone here.

So, what next?

If you don't like my tone, don't read my posts. And calm down-nobody has attacked us yet. If you want to put yourself in Ukrainian shoes, you could try writing a novel or screenplay about the war (after all, you say that people who do such things are no more knowledgeable than the rest of us.)

What the internet left says doesn't really count for anything, and if you don't like what's being said by it, you can always argue back. That's the general idea of forums like this, isn't it?

 

[mojo pixy]

Oh ffs you mealy mouthed nincompoop. Got nothing to say now huh. Thought so.

**Nice edits though. Reckon your post could be as long as Das Kapital if you keep going...

Me, I just like the word 'nincompoop'

 

[RD2003]

And if the Russian state believes it is entitled to invade their neighbours and acts in such a manner, then it merely fuels anti-Russian sentiment and closer ties to NATO in those neighbours. I don't accept that it is the responsibility of Europe and Russia's immediate neighbours to not take measures to defend themselves lest they provoke Russia in doing so. It is the responsibility of Russia, on the contrary, to give their neighbours confidence that they don't need to be afraid of them.

Russia is a country doomed to become irrelevant if it continues on this path. It is the choice of Russia whether they change the current path or not, but if they don't, that isn't really a problem for anyone outside of Russia. If helping Ukraine defeat Russia will inflame Russian nationalism, so what? It is better than a Russian victory which will definitely inflame nationalism even more, and allow them to be in a position of strength where they can do no more damage.

Russia's population is not much more than Japan's and their total GDP is little more than the richest 2 out of Germany's 16 states. They have gas and oil but the world is trying to move away from these so they won't be as vital as they once were in the future. They just aren't a relevant power anymore. If they fail in Ukraine, then they will be militarily irrelevant too. So it doesn't really matter if losing will inflame Russian nationalism or not as they won't be in a position to do any damage. If they win though, then they will be in a position to damage Europe further.

Again, you're opposing what should be with what is. For reasons of its own history, Russia has never accepted what it sees as encroachments on its borders, and is, rightly or wrongly, unlikely to start now. Ukraine, as we are seeing, arouses veryy strong feelings among politically nationalistic Russians in particular, but not only those Russians. It could only ever have been sorted out with a pledge of Ukrainian neutrality. Even Yeltsin's government, largely stooges of the West, opposed NATO expansion to its borders and that was before Ukraine joining NATO at some point ever became an issue. A Russian government that is happy with it is hardly conceivable and would be unlikely to last long.

If Russia loses this war, it will inflame Russian nationalism in the long-term, although it seems unlikely that it will accept defeat without resorting to something drastic (bad news for everybody.) If it wins, it will inflame Russian nationalism in the short-to-medium term. You see the problem? The world, whether anybody likes it or not, has to find a way of living as peacefully as possible, with a nuclear-armed power with ingrained ideas about its own importance and a sense of historical grievance. As for irrelevance, it seems that Putin acted now because he knows that Russia is in danger of declining into irrelevance,-something unacceptable to the historically dominant Russian political outlook and culture-and took a gamble. And decline into historical irrelevance or not, it will still be a nuclear-armed state, and one which will probably try to rebuild its power, as far as possible, by looking eastwards. This isn't what it wants, but it could find some success in doing so, and will be yet more hostile to a west that faces its own largely insoluble problems.

There is also a chance that fate will conspire against Russia, and the state ends up breaking up. The likely consequences of this hardly bear thinking about.

 

[mojo pixy]

What was that? Calm down, nobody has nuked anybody yet. Something like that eh.

You're all over the shop.

 

[RD2003]

What was that? Calm down, nobody has nuked anybody yet. Something like that eh.

You're all over the shop.

We haven't been attacked, but our rulers have stuck their oars in. Which means if a way of bringing the fighting to an end with a messy deal that will inevitably satisfy nobody but might buy time isn't found, and things continue to escalate, then there's a good chance that we might be attacked. With nukes a real possibility.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's sad and worrying that you (or anyone really) thinks anyone in "the west" is in control of this situation.

 

[RD2003]

It's sad and worrying that you (or anyone really) thinks anyone in "the west" is in control of this situation.

Everybody has got involved but nobody is really in control. That's the worry.

 

[mojo pixy]

Everybody has got involved but nobody is really in control. That's the worry.

I think you're either underestimating or deliberately playing down the degree to which the Kremlin / Putin (I can't say I'm clear on the distinction just now), is in fact really in control. That, is the worry.