The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[Dystopiary]

I mean, yeah. Agreed.

...but there's something a bit wonky about "us" pontificating whether people have "the right" to defend themselves or not.

We shouldn't (have) let ourselves get into framing it like that.

Yeah, absolutely, but when there are a lot of people in the "West" saying basically the opposite, people with quite large platforms, I've found it hard not to say it, probably in a more clumsy way than I want to and am trying not to.

Of course, it's not most of us who are in Ukraine or have Ukrainian, Russian or Belarusian family, but decisions are being made by "our" governments and other political groups in our countries that (will) affect those people. In that case I'm not sure it is right not to at least think about where you stand (for want of more appropriate phrasing). The war in Ukraine and reactions to it, not least by those on the left, have led to a lot of people (me included) wondering where they stand politically and morally, and discussion of that is inevitable.

I'm thinking about what you've said though and I'm glad you said it.

 

[emanymton]

I mean, yeah. Agreed.

...but there's something a bit wonky about "us" pontificating whether people have "the right" to defend themselves or not.

We shouldn't (have) let ourselves get into framing it like that.

How do you think it should be framed? Or are you not sure?

 

[LDC]

This is OK for Novara as it goes.

We Asked Post-Soviet Leftists What the Western Left Is Getting Wrong on Ukraine | Novara Media

Leftist narratives of the war in Ukraine have occasionally fallen prey to over-simplification and self-centrism. Four regional activists share their frustrations with Diyora Shadijanova.

novaramedia.com

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think any of us want that. One of the complexities though is that it what if fighting now reduces the chances of it being more bloody later? I don't know if that position is likely to prove accurate, but plenty of people with lots of knowledge seem to think it's quite possible, so it at least needs to be considered. Isn't the NWBTCW position is by default telling the Ukrainian State and military to surrender isn't it, or at the very least for all the non-military people and groups to withdraw any support for it, and for all arms supply to cease? And then how that is supposed to be managed with massive State involvement and peacekeeping and disarmament etc. I have no idea.

On one hand they're saying NWBTCW, but then also 'well, we don't have any answers.' I mean which is it?

Like chilango I don't interpret no war but class war in the seemingly literal way you do.
For me it means trying to organise one's politics such that they are based on the class politics and are intended to strengthen workers, even in the midst of conflicts.

That's a really hard thing to do and I'm not going to finger wag at Ukrainian socialists trying to negotiate such terrain.
A much less dangerous situation but despite my severe criticism of the major unions I wouldn't argue that workers simply don't join a union. I'm a member TUC affiliated union I know all its shortcomings and that fundamentally it is not anti-capitalist but that does not mean that I don't think workers in my sector shouldn't join it (or one of the other mainstream unions).

Socialism is class war, if one throw's that away then one is throwing away socialism but there is considerable width and uncertainty in how one attempts to increase working class power.

EDIT: Or as SpineyNorman put it on the big thread

Why do they have to be organised (at least formally)? Why does it need to be a general strike? Class struggle isn't the glorious proletariat overthrowing the capitalist pigdogs or nothing.

 

[chilango]

How do you think it should be framed? Or are you not sure?

I'm totally not sure!

...but certainly not debating what "right" we think they have to fight, or not.

 

[zahir]

Statement from the Belarussian site Pramen

We and the War - Pramen

We stand together with our comrades in the struggle against russian occupation.

pramen.io

Over the past month you have seen that our team publishes information extremely rarely, and on the site itself news almost does not appear. This is due directly to the events taking place in Ukraine. Some of our comrades are involved in one form or another in the fight against the Russian invasion, and the focus of our collective has shifted to just that. Not on the publication of articles and political perspectives, but on the practical use of our skills against the “Russian world”. The very Russian world, which the Belarussian dictatorship is a representative of.

We fight not for the Ukrainian state, corrupt politicians or big business. Our struggle is primarily aimed at the protection of the people from the atrocities of the Russian dictatorship. And we believe that right now every anarchist from Belarus, Ukraine or Russia should make every possible effort to fight Putin’s fascism, which is marching all over the planet under the symbols Z and V.

This does not mean that you have to join the territorial defense here and now and take up arms. There are many tasks that are important to the existence of the resistance. Join this struggle – there can be no neutral position in this situation. The fight against Lukashenko’s dictatorship is directly related to the destruction of the Putin regime.

Our struggle is not a battle for the borders of this or that state. We do not want new presidents who would be able to solve all problems. We want a world where people decide how to live and how to rebuild their country, and where social and economic systems are built so that there can be no more oligarchs or new dictators.

For a world without wars, state and capitalism
Pramen

 

[hitmouse]

New translation of an article from Russia, looking at the prospects for social struggle after the war:

And After the War?

How will the outcome of the war in Ukraine shape the prospects for revolutionary movements in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus?

crimethinc.com

 

[rekil]

PBP heroically refusing to clap warmonger Zelensky the other day.

People Before Profit TDs explain refusal to applaud President Zelenskyy's Dáil address

PBP TD Richard Boyd Barrett said: "Russia must end this bloody invasion and allow the people of Ukraine to determine their own future".

www.irishexaminer.com

No matter how RBB rationalises it, normal people just view these kinds of theatrics as weirdo cuntishness.


Uh oh, Clare Daly trending on the twitter machine. That means only one thing.

 

[hitmouse]

Ah, this is quite interesting - translation of a statement from a Belarusian anarchist who had fled to Poland and is now fighting in Ukraine:

Message from a Belarusian Anarchist fighting in Ukraine [English-language translation]

raddle.me

Good evening to all but Putin's soldiers.

After all the trips to clearly failed and dangerous actions, the flight from Belarus and what I experienced during my 29 years, it was not so difficult to travel to war-torn Ukraine, although it was terrifying.

It was not entirely clear where I was going, what awaited me, whether I would be allowed to cross the border. I was not sure whether I would reach my destination, as my passport was attracting attention at checkpoints and there was also an attack by enemy planes.

Plus the fear that the first battle would also be the last. But the biggest fear was disappointing my comrades-in-arms.

I am convinced that today's events in Ukraine are deciding the fate not only of Ukraine itself, but of the whole of Europe.

European democracy is terrible, but what is much more terrible is what the so-called 'Russian world' is bringing from the East. The remnants of freedoms and rights that the working class won in Europe, after a long struggle, will be completely destroyed by the Russian dystopia, transforming everything around it into a concentration camp, as they have already done in Belarus, Russia, and partly, in Kazakhstan.

Mikhail Bakunin in his work "Federalism, Socialism and Anti-Theology" wrote: "We are firmly convinced that the most imperfect republic is a thousand times better than the most enlightened monarchy, for in a republic there are moments when the people, though eternally exploited, are at least not oppressed, whereas in monarchies they are constantly oppressed".

So, Russia today is this incredibly aggressive monarchy.

I often read that this is an imperialist war, although it is not clear what the second empire is, and that anarchists can do nothing there.

That Nazis, who fight in any army, fight for Ukraine. That the soldiers on both sides must turn their weapons against the governments, etc., but I have not yet heard that this is also happening on the side of the troops of the "liberators".

And there are many other criticisms, some of which I may even agree with, but the problem is that standing aside and taking a correct class position means becoming a silent witness to the bombings of Kyiv, Kharkiv, Chernigov and Mariupol. And my conscience does not allow me to stand aside.

That is why I am here today in Ukraine, which will face all these difficulties and finally free itself from Moscow's influence, and with it Belarus will be free, and let us hope that after that, Russia itself will finally become a real federation of free nations.

Note: the author of this text is a Belarusian anarchist refugee who was living in Poland and is now a volunteer fighter in Ukraine.

 

[zahir]

Statement from Russian Socialist Movement & Sotsialnyi Rukh

Against Russian Imperialism - Lefteast

Note from LeftEast editors: Since the war started, the left has grappled with the questions of the extent of NATO’s responsibility for it and the call for military aid to Ukraine. In publishing this statement sent to us by our comrades from the Russian Socialist Movement, we acknowledge the...

lefteast.org

In our opinion, the Left should demand:

• the immediate withdrawal of all Russian armed forces from Ukraine
• new targeted, personal sanctions on Putin and his multimillionaires. (It is important to understand that Putin and his establishment care only about their own private assets; they are oblivious to the state of the Russian economy overall. The left can also use this demand to expose the hypocrisy of those who sponsored Putin’s regime and army and even now continue selling weapons to Russia)
• the sanctioning of Russian oil and gas
• increased military support to Ukraine, in particular the provision of air defense systems
• the introduction of UN peacekeepers from non-NATO countries to protect civilians, including the protection of green corridors and the protection of nuclear power plants (Russia’s veto in the UN Security Council can be overcome at the General Assembly)

The left should also support those Ukrainian leftists who are resisting, giving them visibility, centering their voices, and supporting them financially. We recognize that it is the millions of Ukrainian essential workers and humanitarian aid volunteers who make further resistance possible.

A number of other demands – support for all refugees in Europe regardless of citizenship, the cancellation of Ukraine’s foreign debt, sanctions against Russian oligarchs, etc. – are broadly accepted on the left and, therefore, we do not discuss them here.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine sets a terrible precedent for the resolution of conflicts which involve the risk of nuclear war. This is why the Left must come up with our own vision of international relations and the architecture of international security which may include multilateral nuclear disarmament (which will be binding for all nuclear powers) and the institutionalization of international economic responses to any imperialist aggression in the world. The military defeat of Russia should be the first step towards the democratization of the global order and the formations of an international security system, and the international left must make a contribution to this cause.

The Russian Socialist Movement is a political organization whose vision of democratic socialism is based on communal ownership of property, political freedom and self-determination. They believe that only a mass movement—of socialists, unions, feminists, antifascists and environmental activists—armed with class-based solidarity and egalitarianism can end the rule of capital in Russia.

Sotsialnyi Rukh (Ukr. ‘Social Movement’) is a Ukrainian democratic-socialist left organization that fights against capitalism and xenophobia. Social Movement unites social activists and trade unions in the struggle to build a better world without the dictatorship of capital, patriarchy, and discrimination

 

[Flavour]

Fucking hell, that's awful. I didn't expect quite such pathetic analysis from the Italian FAI

Coming back to this cos I've just seen a poster for an anti-military demonstration in Turin tomorrow...

Lots of nice points there like:

• no to more arms production facilities
• against all imperialism and for a world without borders
• against Turin hosting a DIANA center for NATO tech innovation
• against the profiteering of the fossil fuel industry

but then of course there's also
... - "no more sending arms to Ukraine"

and that's where it all gets a bit difficult

 

[LDC]

Coming back to this cos I've just seen a poster for an anti-military demonstration in Turin tomorrow...

Lots of nice points there like:

• no to more arms production facilities
• against all imperialism and for a world without borders
• against Turin hosting a DIANA center for NATO tech innovation
• against the profiteering of the fossil fuel industry

but then of course there's also
... - "no more sending arms to Ukraine"

and that's where it all gets a bit difficult

The image ffs, is that supposed to be Vietnam and then a bloodthirsty Uncle Sam? Also doesn't even mention Russia in the first chunk of text.

 

[Idris2002]

Wrong thread.

 

[Flavour]

The image ffs, is that supposed to be Vietnam and then a bloodthirsty Uncle Sam? Also doesn't even mention Russia in the first chunk of text.

Yeah it's the same image they've been using for this sort of thing for many many years. And no it does not specifically mention Russia at all. Only Ukraine. Who we should stop arming. Its funny cos there's a lot they have in common with the Lega Nord politicians like Francesca Donato who were also vocal about being against the Green Pass and now, against helping Ukraine. Bit weird to see some on far left and far right align on certain positions in two consecutive crises

 

[redsquirrel]

Yeah it's the same image they've been using for this sort of thing for many many years. And no it does not specifically mention Russia at all. Only Ukraine. Who we should stop arming. Its funny cos there's a lot they have in common with the Lega Nord politicians like Francesca Donato who were also vocal about being against the Green Pass and now, against helping Ukraine. Bit weird to see some on far left and far right align on certain positions in two consecutive crises

I've been meaning to ask has a different opened up between the Lega and FdI over this? And is it feeding into the competition between the two populist right parties?

 

[Serge Forward]

Yep, the "trenchism" comparisons with WWI don't really hold up, completely different situation. The people in Ukraine have every right to fight for their lives, their families, homes and communities.

One of the big recruiters for the trenches in 1914 was the plight of Belgium (or "the rape of Belgium" as it was called then) brutalised by hordes of "the hun". So it's not that dissimilar, really. And should this conflict become a wider conflagration between NATO and Russia, then where will those on here who are anti-NWBTCW stand then?

 

[LDC]

I'm also not sure you painting people as simply anti-NWBTCW is entirely accurate or fair, from what you've said you also think it's justified and understandable and worthy of support that people can defend themselves and their homes etc. so doesn't it really come down to more specific positions about under what conditions and how with and what compromises you make when you do that surely? Unless you think there is absolutely no class interest or potential in the people fighting and the only possibility is that they're a reactionary force for capital/State? Which, given that that is not the position of anyone from the left in Ukraine (and the wider area) I have heard speak or read stuff from would seem quite an 'out there' stretch to be that clear and sure about it?

Surely people fighting in Ukraine are mostly working class people fighting a reactionary borderline fascist State invading where they live and murdering them, amongst other horrors? They might not be fighting as a class at the point of production, but that's a very narrow definition of what class and class struggle is isnt it? If that was the definition not much the ACG does could be counted as clearly formed class struggle would it? You can liken the coverage of the horrors happening to a detached 'oh just like Belgium in 1914' but tbh that's a pretty shallow analysis, and also illustrates what I think is one of the dangers of the simple NWBTCW position in that it can let people off having to actually work out what is happening there and how class struggle actually fits into it. It also does seem to dodge dealing with the fact that there are actually atrocities perpetuated on a daily basis by the Russian military. It wouldn't feel a huge stretch to see that position as actually minimizing the horrors tbh, although I'm sure that is not at all what you mean to do.

Given the NWBTCW position seems to practically translate into all weapons supply should cease (some unions are actually blocking the supply of arms to Ukraine, would you support that as class struggle?) and that everyone in Ukraine should stop fighting now, and then under Russian occupation engage in strikes, demos, etc. (and likely get murdered btw) it's hard to see how while it's an appealing political position for some here (maybe even theoretically the right one) it doesn't actually bear any relevance or use for people in Ukraine now does it?

Maybe the reality is that this situation doesn't fit into any clearly defined narrative, but that it's just a horrible, messy, complicated thing, but some parts of it are worthy of support on the basis of human solidarity against oppression? But encapsulated within that there clearly is a side that we would rather win. And to pretend that they're all equally bad, or both just capitalist countries neither of which we should support in any way, is a grim attempt at political objectivity that in reality ends up being on the side of reaction and the murderous aggressors.

Saturday night fml.

 

[belboid]

One of the big recruiters for the trenches in 1914 was the plight of Belgium (or "the rape of Belgium" as it was called then) brutalised by hordes of "the hun". So it's not that dissimilar, really. And should this conflict become a wider conflagration between NATO and Russia, then where will those on here who are anti-NWBTCW stand then?

Ukrainian colonialism didn't have quite the same spread as Belgian. Not that I'd have been against Belgian people defending themselves either.

 

[hitmouse]

One of the big recruiters for the trenches in 1914 was the plight of Belgium (or "the rape of Belgium" as it was called then) brutalised by hordes of "the hun". So it's not that dissimilar, really. And should this conflict become a wider conflagration between NATO and Russia, then where will those on here who are anti-NWBTCW stand then?

Yeah, I had been thinking about the Belgium comparison - the Manifesto of the Sixteen must have seemed reasonable at the time to the people who signed it, they didn't know what they were getting into, and perhaps this is the start of a ten-year hot war between NATO and Russia that we'll look on the same way in retrospect. But again, as RR pointed out on another thread, in WWII there were those urging a strict anti-war position, without full knowledge of what the consequences and implications of that position would be either. We can't say which of those this situation will end up looking more like, but we have to make our decisions in the present.

 

[frogwoman]

I might be imagining this but weren't some of the Belgian atrocities fake? Not really sure that's the best comparison to be making at the moment given the direction of Russian propaganda tbh

 

[redsquirrel]

I might be imagining this but weren't some of the Belgian atrocities fake? Not really sure that's the best comparison to be making at the moment given the direction of Russian propaganda tbh

I'm not certain but my understanding was that it was a bit more mixed than that. A combination of some real incidents, confused messages and some exaggeration all with the background of well used propaganda by the Allied Powers.

---

I'm wary of making direct comparisons but I don't really see how anyone coming from the perspective of class struggle cannot see some parallels with WWI - Belgium and Serbia, the very quick move of liberalism to nationalism, the framing of liberalism vs authorities regimes, the 'othering' (absolutely hate that word, anyone able to suggest a better alternative?) of Germans/Russians.

I'm not saying people on this thread are doing any of the above, but I think it is pretty clear they are happening and they are not in the interests of workers.

One of the things that means that I cannot go pro-NATO is the parallel of more and more countries being pulled into interlocking military alliances that could create a house of cards. I don't think this conflict this going to lead to WWIII, in some ways I think it parallels those conflicts that occurred prior WWI, and led to the alignment of powers into camps.

Of course there are other parallels and hitmouse point that we have only have the present to go on is correct.

 

[Spandex]

I might be imagining this but weren't some of the Belgian atrocities fake? Not really sure that's the best comparison to be making at the moment given the direction of Russian propaganda tbh

German atrocities in Belgium during WW1, especially early in the war, were absolutely real. Collective punishment was common, with whole villages executed because someone had shot a German. There was the looting, rape and casual murder which often goes with invading armies. There were high profile acts of destruction, such as the deliberate burning of the ancient Leuven University library, with millions of books and thousands of irreplaceable ancient manuscripts destroyed.

But this did form the basis of anti-German propaganda, with newspapers focusing on the most lurid details and deliberate exaggeration. A group of nuns being strip searched became evil Germans raping nuns. There's the apocryphal tales of monstrous huns skewering babies on their bayonets. Real atrocities were exaggerated, embellished and turned into part of the justification for British (and later US) entry to the war, as a recuitment tool to encourage men to sign up. But that doesn't mean that there weren't very real atrocities committed.

While parallels can be seen with Ukraine in this, there's plenty more differences between the outbreak of WW1 and the current situation. Britain and France (and Germany for what it was worth) had guaranteed Belgian security and independence. Britain and France had an alliance and joint plans for a German invasion dating back to 1910. Germany wasn't really interested in Belgium, it was just the route to invade France. Even if you squint it's hard to see those as comparable with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It's tempting to look for historic comparisons to help us figure out where we might be going, but picking one aspect and ignoring others does more to cloud than illuminate.

 

[ska invita]

Anyone advocating for Ukrainian surrender is wilfully condemning all those newly under occupation (Kherson etc) to a life of shit for the benefit of appeasing Putin, fuck that

"I understand it’s impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to Third World War. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began and then we will try to solve the Donbass issue."
-that was Zelenskyy just last week

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You don't have to go back as far as WW1 to see historical parallels. WW2 and its immediate aftermath give plenty of examples of how the Soviet Union treated its non-Russian minorities, with executions, brutal genocidal deportations of whole nationalities, and of course the obligatory rewriting of history. All at its worst in the Crimea, Ukraine and North Caucasus.

 

[Serge Forward]

I'm also not sure you painting people as simply anti-NWBTCW is entirely accurate or fair, from what you've said you also think it's justified and understandable and worthy of support that people can defend themselves and their homes etc. so doesn't it really come down to more specific positions about under what conditions and how with and what compromises you make when you do that surely? Unless you think there is absolutely no class interest or potential in the people fighting and the only possibility is that they're a reactionary force for capital/State? Which, given that that is not the position of anyone from the left in Ukraine (and the wider area) I have heard speak or read stuff from would seem quite an 'out there' stretch to be that clear and sure about it?

Surely people fighting in Ukraine are mostly working class people fighting a reactionary borderline fascist State invading where they live and murdering them, amongst other horrors? They might not be fighting as a class at the point of production, but that's a very narrow definition of what class and class struggle is isnt it? If that was the definition not much the ACG does could be counted as clearly formed class struggle would it? You can liken the coverage of the horrors happening to a detached 'oh just like Belgium in 1914' but tbh that's a pretty shallow analysis, and also illustrates what I think is one of the dangers of the simple NWBTCW position in that it can let people off having to actually work out what is happening there and how class struggle actually fits into it. It also does seem to dodge dealing with the fact that there are actually atrocities perpetuated on a daily basis by the Russian military. It wouldn't feel a huge stretch to see that position as actually minimizing the horrors tbh, although I'm sure that is not at all what you mean to do.

Given the NWBTCW position seems to practically translate into all weapons supply should cease (some unions are actually blocking the supply of arms to Ukraine, would you support that as class struggle?) and that everyone in Ukraine should stop fighting now, and then under Russian occupation engage in strikes, demos, etc. (and likely get murdered btw) it's hard to see how while it's an appealing political position for some here (maybe even theoretically the right one) it doesn't actually bear any relevance or use for people in Ukraine now does it?

Maybe the reality is that this situation doesn't fit into any clearly defined narrative, but that it's just a horrible, messy, complicated thing, but some part of it are worthy of support on the basis of human solidarity against oppression? But encapsulated within that there clearly is a side that we would rather win. And to pretend that they're all equally bad, or both just capitalist countries neither of which we should support in any way, is a grim attempt at political objectivity that in reality ends up being on the side of reaction and the murderous aggressors.

Saturday night fml.

Yeah, maybe my use of "anti-NWBTCW" is a bit of an over generalisation. Sorry for that. But there have also been various characterisations on here of NWBTCW as (checks imaginary notes): pacifist, unrealistic, head in the clouds, campist, STWC-ish, excuse for doing nowt, etc, etc. I'm still waiting for "Putin's little helpers", I don't think we're there yet but I'm sure we've been close.

 

[LDC]

Thanks for the answer. Yeah I totally admit it can get a bit heated and not always fair in all directions. I appreciate the sensible discussion.

 

[Cid]

"I understand it’s impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to Third World War. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began and then we will try to solve the Donbass issue."
-that was Zelenskyy just last week

As I recall what he was arguing for was a withdrawal to pre-conflict positions, with the prospect of referendums to come in Donbas (and I guess on Crimea). All to be done under the operating procedures of UKR government; agreement of legislature, votes on changes to constitution etc. That is something fundamentally different from just surrendering currently occupied territories.

 

[ska invita]

As I recall what he was arguing for was a withdrawal to pre-conflict positions, with the prospect of referendums to come in Donbas (and I guess on Crimea). All to be done under the operating procedures of UKR government; agreement of legislature, votes on changes to constitution etc. That is something fundamentally different from just surrendering currently occupied territories.

i was making the point that all NO SURRENDER talk must be tempered by the fact that Zelenskiy sounds to be prepared to 'surrender' Ukrainian territory in the name of a negotiated peace, and has said as much just recently

 

[Cid]

i was making the point that all NO SURRENDER talk must be tempered by the fact that Zelenskiy sounds to be prepared to 'surrender' Ukrainian territory in the name of a negotiated peace, and has said as much just recently

I think there's a degree of talking at crossed purposes here... I would imagine most of us (the denizens of urban 75) would fall somewhere into a muddy area that wants some kind of compromise that ends the immediate conflict, and to the greatest extent possible preserves the rights of people in affected areas. I think all but the most hawkish on here accept that there may be territorial losses (though that calculus from the UA pov I think has been thrown out of whack somewhat after Bucha, and with developing strategic picture). But that those should be negotiated while the regions are under occupation, and with no input from the affected people is... less acceptable.

But straying off leftist stuff a bit here, so probably continue this elsewhere at some point.

 

[hitmouse]

May as well crosspost this interview here:

On militarism, the fight against Putin and the prospects: an April interview with Anarchy Today

A few days ago, members of this counter-information group talked with comrades from Germany and answered their questions. See also our own recent survey on grassroots sabotage of the Russian agression and please support our digital media center via this page to help the civilian residents of...

libcom.org