The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[platinumsage]

Statement from Russian Socialist Movement & Sotsialnyi Rukh

Against Russian Imperialism - Lefteast

Note from LeftEast editors: Since the war started, the left has grappled with the questions of the extent of NATO’s responsibility for it and the call for military aid to Ukraine. In publishing this statement sent to us by our comrades from the Russian Socialist Movement, we acknowledge the...

lefteast.org

In our opinion, the Left should demand:

• the immediate withdrawal of all Russian armed forces from Ukraine
• new targeted, personal sanctions on Putin and his multimillionaires. (It is important to understand that Putin and his establishment care only about their own private assets; they are oblivious to the state of the Russian economy overall. The left can also use this demand to expose the hypocrisy of those who sponsored Putin’s regime and army and even now continue selling weapons to Russia)
• the sanctioning of Russian oil and gas
• increased military support to Ukraine, in particular the provision of air defense systems
• the introduction of UN peacekeepers from non-NATO countries to protect civilians, including the protection of green corridors and the protection of nuclear power plants (Russia’s veto in the UN Security Council can be overcome at the General Assembly)

Those demands are basically Boris Johnson's demands, so the left in the UK should support Johnson.

Except for the last one, which is misguided. Remember the Srebrenica massacre? UN peacekeepers are typically unable to protect anyone in a normal conflict - their rules of engagement would prevent them from engaging Russian troops to protect civilians - add in the Russian's deliberate targeting of civilians and humanitarian efforts, especially via artillery and missile strikes, and then blaming it on Ukrainians.... you'd have a total shit-show.

 

[hitmouse]

Those demands are basically Boris Johnson's demands, so the left in the UK should support Johnson.

Yep, you cracked the code, that joint statement from Russian and Ukrainian socialist organisations is really all about Boris Johnson. Shall we do "politicians saying that climate change is bad" next, or maybe covid vaccination?

 

[The39thStep]

Did anyone go/attend the Trade Unions Stand with Ukraine demo at the weekend ?

 

[ska invita]

Did anyone go/attend the Trade Unions Stand with Ukraine demo at the weekend ?

"Arm, Arm, Arm Ukraine" is the chant is it? Bit depressing that this is the message from the union movement.
I mean, even if you reason that arming Ukraine is the right thing to do, why go on the streets to chant it? That's exactly what the Tories are doing, and making good electoral mileage from doing so - and they're increasing military spending in general while they are about it.

 

[The39thStep]

"Arm, Arm, Arm Ukraine" is the chant is it? Bit depressing that this is the message from the union movement.
I mean, even if you reason that arming Ukraine is the right thing to do, why go on the streets to chant it? That's exactly what the Tories are doing, and making good electoral mileage from doing so - and they're increasing military spending in general while they are about it.

I think its the AWL leading the chants

 

[The39thStep]

"Arm, Arm, Arm Ukraine" is the chant is it? Bit depressing that this is the message from the union movement.
I mean, even if you reason that arming Ukraine is the right thing to do, why go on the streets to chant it? That's exactly what the Tories are doing, and making good electoral mileage from doing so - and they're increasing military spending in general while they are about it.

If you want more depression read this article by Paul Mason on expanding NATO under its 'new' social democratic axis Ukraine, NATO and a Zeitenwende

 

[Smokeandsteam]

"Arm, Arm, Arm Ukraine" is the chant is it? Bit depressing that this is the message from the union movement.
I mean, even if you reason that arming Ukraine is the right thing to do, why go on the streets to chant it? That's exactly what the Tories are doing, and making good electoral mileage from doing so - and they're increasing military spending in general while they are about it.

I'm not sure that you can call a march of 200 people in London as 'the message from the union movement'. A number of unions including Unite and Unison weren't on or supporting this demo. Finally, as I understand it the demands were/are:

• Solidarity with Ukraine
• Russian troops out of Ukraine
• No to Putin's war
• Support Ukrainian trade unions
• Refugees welcome

What do you think unions should be doing instead? Do you think Ukraine should be disarmed?

 

[rekil]

Fair trade arms from Iran.

 

[LDC]

"Arm, Arm, Arm Ukraine" is the chant is it? Bit depressing that this is the message from the union movement.
I mean, even if you reason that arming Ukraine is the right thing to do, why go on the streets to chant it? That's exactly what the Tories are doing, and making good electoral mileage from doing so - and they're increasing military spending in general while they are about it.

Don't chant it cos the Tories agree? That's a pretty weak argument. Is it really that you disagree?

I haven't watched the video, but suspect it wasn't the main message, and can see that it isn't from the demands. Anyway, it's streets ahead of much of what the rest of the left seems to be saying.

 

[steeplejack]

If you want more depression read this article by Paul Mason on expanding NATO under its 'new' social democratic axis Ukraine, NATO and a Zeitenwende

On the upside does anyone actually read Social Europe? I always feel these generously funded brushed-aluminium type platforms are only ever read by an army of middle aged wonkish men in moderately expensive suits and rimless spectacles.

I really wish people would just ignore Paul Mason. Finely tuned self-promoting algorithms aren't funny. If the audience for this claptrap dries up (hopefully) so does the think tank funding.

 

[chilango]

I think its the AWL leading the chants

Was it them or Workers Power who got all cheerleady for the Kosovan Liberation Army back in the day?

 

[Pickman's model]

Was it them or Workers Power who got all cheerleady for the Kosovan Liberation Army back in the day?

might be both

 

[The39thStep]

On the upside does anyone actually read Social Europe? I always feel these generously funded brushed-aluminium type platforms are only ever read by an army of middle aged wonkish men in moderately expensive suits and rimless spectacles.

I really wish people would just ignore Paul Mason. Finely tuned self-promoting algorithms aren't funny. If the audience for this claptrap dries up (hopefully) so does the think tank funding.

I've always thought of Mason as a Trotskyite version of Alan Partridge tbh.

 

[chilango]

might be both

Could well have been.

I just remember the moronic "Victory to the KLA" graffiti that appeared on numerous walls for a few short weeks.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've always thought of Mason as a Trotskyite version of Alan Partridge tbh.

but without the wit, charm and intelligence of ap?

 

[The39thStep]

but without the wit, charm and intelligence of ap?

without the self awareness

 

[hitmouse]

Don't chant it cos the Tories agree? That's a pretty weak argument. Is it really that you disagree?

I haven't watched the video, but suspect it wasn't the main message, and can see that it isn't from the demands. Anyway, it's streets ahead of much of what the rest of the left seems to be saying.

Yeah, another downside to "arm Ukraine" as a chant is that from a distance it probably sounds not that dissimilar to "bomb Ukraine", I was briefly confused by that when watching a little bit of the video. And agreed that it isn't "the union movement" so much as one part of it, a cynic might say "that part of the union movement where the AWL have a bit of influence". Would still be more comfortable bringing my branch banner on that than on a StW demo, though.
And yeah, just to mention again that on this thread we've just had a joint statement posted from Ukrainian and Russian socialist organisations:

Against Russian Imperialism - Lefteast

Note from LeftEast editors: Since the war started, the left has grappled with the questions of the extent of NATO’s responsibility for it and the call for military aid to Ukraine. In publishing this statement sent to us by our comrades from the Russian Socialist Movement, we acknowledge the...

lefteast.org

I'm not saying that means we have to turn our brains off and blindly follow whatever they say, but it seems like something worth engaging with and taking as a starting point. Do people think we should write back to them and say "nice work on the statement but some of your suggestions feel a bit icky, can you come up with some other ones that Boris Johnson can't agree with?"
Personally I think "squat the oligarchs' mansions" is a good starting point for a UK left demand/slogan/whatever, but I'm buggered if I can see any way to make that rhyme or scan as a chant.

 

[LDC]

Personally I think "squat the oligarchs' mansions" is a good starting point for a UK left demand/slogan/whatever, but I'm buggered if I can see any way to make that rhyme or scan as a chant.

I dunno, I'm a bit meh about that squatting the mansions thing tbh, all feels bit teenage anarchist. It does generate some OK publicity (for what this is worth) but it's limited to being pretty small scale and sub-cultural, and so not really going to go anywhere is it?

 

[hitmouse]

I've always thought of Mason as a Trotskyite version of Alan Partridge tbh.

"Idea for a Transitional Programme: Ummm, monkey defence squads?"

 

[ska invita]

I'm not sure that you can call a march of 200 people in London as 'the message from the union movement'. A number of unions including Unite and Unison weren't on or supporting this demo. Finally, as I understand it the demands were/are:

• Solidarity with Ukraine
• Russian troops out of Ukraine
• No to Putin's war
• Support Ukrainian trade unions
• Refugees welcome

What do you think unions should be doing instead? Do you think Ukraine should be disarmed?

ah okay i watched a few seconds on my phone whilst in the middle of something else - looked like a long line of banners at a glance
of course agree 100% with the list of 'demands' above
the key thing unions can do is provide practical grassroots support and build international (class-based) solidarity - shouting arm arm arm ukraine on the streets of London doesn't match any of the above for me

BTW I agree with Paul Mason that:

"Today, China and Russia have announced the start of a systemic conflict among three rival ‘modernities’: western democracy, Chinese totalitarianism and Russian totalitarianism, the latter two in a strategic alliance. It implies the division of the world into semi-permanent blocs. Russia’s overt target is the breakup of NATO, the EU and any other structure in the international architecture which gets in its way. "
...though he paints it as a new development, Id say its long been that way, long before this invasion of Ukraine, hence 'inter-imperial'

 

[hitmouse]

I dunno, I'm a bit meh about that squatting the mansions thing tbh, all feels bit teenage anarchist. It does generate some OK publicity (for what this is worth) but it's limited to being pretty small scale and sub-cultural, and so not really going to go anywhere is it?

You say that like it's a bad thing! Dunno, you might well be right, I was just trying to come up with "demands/slogans in solidarity with Ukraine that can't be slagged off for being things the tories would agree with", but on reflection maybe that's a pointless game to play anyway. I suppose there is... if not quite a catch-22, then at least a tension or something, where anything small-scale and immediate like squatting a mansion can be written off as being small-scale and not likely to have any real effect on the situation, and anything large-scale like supplying anti-aircraft weaponry can be written off as something that's too ambitious for us to practically do? That tension isn't unique to this stuff, you can see the same problem around climate change or whatever, but feels perhaps like it's particularly pronounced here.

 

[LDC]

You say that like it's a bad thing! Dunno, you might well be right, I was just trying to come up with "demands/slogans in solidarity with Ukraine that can't be slagged off for being things the tories would agree with", but on reflection maybe that's a pointless game to play anyway. I suppose there is... if not quite a catch-22, then at least a tension or something, where anything small-scale and immediate like squatting a mansion can be written off as being small-scale and not likely to have any real effect on the situation, and anything large-scale like supplying anti-aircraft weaponry can be written off as something that's too ambitious for us to practically do? That tension isn't unique to this stuff, you can see the same problem around climate change or whatever, but feels perhaps like it's particularly pronounced here.

I mean demos and demands are always going to be the boring and largely pointless domain of the established left parties, unions, and weird little groups aren't they? Maybe we should be getting more excited about direct solidarity aid/support and direct action stuff?

 

[Pickman's model]

I mean demos and demands are always going to be the boring and largely pointless domain of the established left parties, unions, and weird little groups aren't they? Maybe we should be getting more excited about direct solidarity aid/support and direct action stuff?

but when people take direct action you say it's like teenage anarchists. perhaps you should be a bit more excited about direct action stuff, show us what you're made of

 

[Nigel]

Was it them or Workers Power who got all cheerleady for the Kosovan Liberation Army back in the day?

When there was, lets call it a diversion between Workers Aid & International Workers Aid during the time that convoys expanded this enterprise to Prisitna, significant elements within this; people but not necessarily the organisations in and around L. Briefing, Socialist Outlook, USEC/USFI, C.A.F.E. etc had some romaticised illusions in KLA/UCK. Maybe WP went along with this, although as far as I remember were reltively critical of such a position.
Although as KLA/UCK were defending, not only Kosovans/Ethnic Albanians but other ethnic groups from Serbian Nationalists have some sympathy for them myself; significantly those influenced by neo Maoism that when talking to their representatives were critical of Hoxha!

 

[ska invita]

I was just trying to come up with "demands/slogans in solidarity with Ukraine that can't be slagged off for being things the tories would agree with", but on reflection maybe that's a pointless game to play anyway.

I think its important to make a distinction between why we might want Ukraine to continue to receive arms and why the likes of the Tories would. Arm Arm Arm Ukraine makes no distinctions as to the rationale.

I'd presume its not contentious to say we would want it for some kind of moral case to defend the Ukrainian innocent and to combat Russian despotic imperialism.
US UK and other EU governments have a very different agenda. Maybe it symbolically overlaps with the above but the idea its a moral or anti-despotic intervention is disproved by the endless evidence, including events happening literally today, such as ignoring large scale ethnic cleansing right now in Ethiopia to arming Saudis against Yemen etc etc etc etc etc etc etc and so on, back into time immemorial.

Paul Mason's argument that this time around a stronger NATO will really really just be a defensive force is so naïve its shocking - totally ahistorical.
This is proving a great opportunity for Western militarists to firm up a European fighting force which as well as creating defensive capabilities will no doubt continue to have expansionist - I would say imperialist - ones.

 

[zahir]

Statement from Ukrainian anti-fascists

Statement of Ukrainian anti-fascists

Statement of Ukrainian anti-fascists (7.4.2022) Unfortunately, we see that many foreign anti-fascists and leftists don’t understand what t...

glykosymoritis.blogspot.com

Unfortunately, we see that many foreign anti-fascists and leftists don’t understand what the DPR, LPR, Belorussia, Russia are, who their leaders are and what political perspective they offer to the whole world. Let's make it clear, the DNR/LNR are authoritarian proxy structures of the Russian Federation (RF) and part of Putin's imperialist plan.

Russia is an authoritarian and fascist state, a neo-empire. Moscow is a metropolis and the culprit of most local conflicts.

Ask activists from Russia who are in prison or have escaped from there how well leftists and anti-fascists live there. Ask refugees from Chechnya, Dagestan, Georgia, Belorussia, Russia and other countries what Putin and RF are.

Putin, Lukashenko and the leaders of the DNR/LNR are authoritarians who build deeply authoritarian and fascist regimes. Support for Russia, Belorussia, DNR/LNR means support for fascists.

The anti-fascist narrative of the RF and "denazification" are lies and justification for the destruction of cities, genocide, rapes, tortures, executions, looting. Several thousand nazis with minimal electoral support in a country with 40 million are neither a threat nor a reason to invade.

If you consider yourself leftists, anti-fascists, anti-authoritarians, libertarians, etc., you cannot support the above forces and actions.

Otherwise, just stop denigrating our name and history!

There is no need to choose between two imperialisms, instead there are libertarian alternatives. We don’t support Zelensky or statehood. We do not support NATO. Yes, there are nazis in Ukraine, same as in other countries. No, we don't need help from Putin or other authoritarians to deal with them. We'll do it on our own.

If you really care about nazism and fascism, stop supporting fascist regimes, start doing something against pro-russian forces in your countries, support fellow anti-fascists and leftists in Ukraine, and fight against Putin. If Ukraine loses, Europe will be next.

Long live Liberated Ukraine! Social, Libertarian, Independent!

 

[Cid]

I mean demos and demands are always going to be the boring and largely pointless domain of the established left parties, unions, and weird little groups aren't they? Maybe we should be getting more excited about direct solidarity aid/support and direct action stuff?

There are few sights more depressing than a middle aged English man in a crap hat trying to get his compatriots to do call and response type chants on a demo, it must be said.

 

[A380]

W

There are few sights more depressing than a middle aged English man in a crap hat trying to get his compatriots to do call and response type chants on a demo, it must be said.

What do we want?
Not to make a fuss
When do we want it?
Any time that suits really.

 

[hitmouse]

Perhaps Nigel would like to share the joke with the class?

 

[hitmouse]

Also, huh: IGD put up a piece strongly arguing for a strict NWBCW line (from a somewhat insurrectionist standpoint, as you might expect). I didn't agree with it but thought it was interesting and was going to share it here when I got a chance, but I now see it's been taken down. Huh.