The US secret war
- Thread starter Mickey2star
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The Pious Pawn
I Can
a intresting read
Mickey2star
Active Member
It is - I agree.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Good article.
Mr. Shaman
New Member
I don't have a problem with the CIA opening up interrogation camps in Europe. It has to have the total compliance of the host country. It seems like the US was spending a lot of cash after 9-11. And its possible some of these camps were opened. If any type of physical torute occurred I would be dead set against these camps.
But its something the US works out with the host country. If such camps exist in say Poland or Romaina its an agreement we work out with them. Its no business of Germany or France how these countries conduct their foreign policy.
It will pass. European Intelligence agencies don't sit around playing tiddlewinks themselves. And except for Iraq, America and Europe seem to play very well together on terrorism.
But its something the US works out with the host country. If such camps exist in say Poland or Romaina its an agreement we work out with them. Its no business of Germany or France how these countries conduct their foreign policy.
It will pass. European Intelligence agencies don't sit around playing tiddlewinks themselves. And except for Iraq, America and Europe seem to play very well together on terrorism.
Yossarian
⏭️
mears said:
Poland is now an EU member and Romania has applied to become an EU member - this means they've signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights which means things like having secret CIA torture chambers in your country are a no-no - and as fellow EU members it is indeed the business of France and Germany.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Er...
I beleive Africa Bombata now when he said there are a newtork of secret prisons throughout America. Now I'll read the article and think of something good to say.
I beleive Africa Bombata now when he said there are a newtork of secret prisons throughout America. Now I'll read the article and think of something good to say.
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
mears said:
"You don't like my principles? Then I have others"
That should be written on your headstone Mears - No morals, no principles, no nothing.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
mears said:
There are CIA / US Govt torture camps being run in various parts of the world I think that has been proved now.
And as members of the EU we are all responsible to a considerable extent for each others foreign policy.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
err...no. try again.mears said:
They are also the words - and testimony - of tony Lagouranis, and also Frank Ford.
makes you feel proud, huh, that this is being done in your bame and with your taxes?
ETA: please everyone - read those links. What i read there made me feel physically sick.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
Oh, the blinding hypocrisy of it all!!!!!! Weren't you the one bitching about this sort of thing taking place in other countries? Yes, you were and you used the issue of human rights abuses to bolster you feeble defence of US foreign policy.
Talk about dishonest.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
So mears - why is the CIA flying its (names unlisted, held without charge, denied visits from the red cross) prisoners to secret camps and/or lending them to countries who routinely practice torture?
And the issue of a country running an global wide network of gulags and torture camps is very much the business of everybody on the planet who values basic human decency and codes of behaviour.
You're an utter hypocrite and we'll force your words down your throat next time you shed your crcocodile tears and faux outrage over the human rights abuses of Amercia's next bette noir de jour.
And the issue of a country running an global wide network of gulags and torture camps is very much the business of everybody on the planet who values basic human decency and codes of behaviour.
You're an utter hypocrite and we'll force your words down your throat next time you shed your crcocodile tears and faux outrage over the human rights abuses of Amercia's next bette noir de jour.
Yossarian
⏭️
mears said:
They were posted by me under my name, whose fucking words did you think they were?
And you respond to my explanation of why it's the business of France and Germany by...saying the exact same thing again.
I refer you to my previous post for all further discussion on the matter, I don't fancy getting sucked into a loop of idiocy with you.
Kaka Tim said:
They are flying prisoners around to get information to prevent attacks similar to those in London, Madrid or New York. American laws are very stringent on bringing foreign prisoners to the US. Taking them to Guantonimo is time consuming and expensive. So they need a place to interrogate these boys. If Eastern European countries provide the space than more power to them.
Again, "torture" camp and "gulags" are one thing, interrogation camps quite another. You make it sound as if thousands of people are being tortured around the world at the hands of the CIA. Ther is no evidence of such a scenario. Its just a play on words.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
read the fucking links above again, numbnuts - torture is being practiced by your country's services.mears said:
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
'Evidence' obtained through the use of torture is notoriously unreliable since the person being tortured will say anything to get the pain to stop - or did that ever cross your tiny mind? Furthermore, the regime of torture and "renditions" (possibly the most bizarre euphemism ever used) have signally failed to stop any terror attacks. If you think such methods have been useful then you do not live in the real world.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Red Jezza said:
That will be MK Ultra, which may or may not, have led to the mental disintegration and death of Paul Robeson.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
nino_savatte said:That will be MK Ultra, which may or may not, have led to the mental disintegration and death of Paul Robeson.
Ultra and/or its' siblings, anyway.
Programmes derided by mears' spiritual predecessors as "fantasy" and "conspiracy theory" that turned out to be true.
You know what's odd about this "distinction" between torture and interrogation? I remember making a series of posts back (IIRC) in late 2003, mentioning how laws against torture were being circumvented by re-labeling it as a form of "interrogation" and how, whatever you decided to call the act of using pain and psychological pressure to extract information, it was the same thing, and derived roughly the same percentage of usable intel.
Amazing how millions of people can be lulled and millions of consciences salved by a bit of re-branding, isn't it?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:Ultra and/or its' siblings, anyway.
Programmes derided by mears' spiritual predecessors as "fantasy" and "conspiracy theory" that turned out to be true.
You know what's odd about this "distinction" between torture and interrogation? I remember making a series of posts back (IIRC) in late 2003, mentioning how laws against torture were being circumvented by re-labeling it as a form of "interrogation" and how, whatever you decided to call the act of using pain and psychological pressure to extract information, it was the same thing, and derived roughly the same percentage of usable intel.
Amazing how millions of people can be lulled and millions of consciences salved by a bit of re-branding, isn't it?
Exactly and you are right to use the word "rebranding" to describe the redefinition of torture.
I expect mears to change the subject or to chuck out his oft used phrase.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Red Jezza said:
The man who actually developed the programme had second thoughts about it all. He was later found dead on the pavement, after allegedly leaping to his death. It is reckoned that he too had been poisoned. I can't remember his name off the top of my head but I'll try and find it.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
yes please do try nino. i've clearly got a bit of reading to do on this. I'm stunned
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Nino could be talking about Dr Frank Olson (that's an "o", not an "e" in the last bit). He was given LSD and then apparently suicided, but his fall and the results of his post mortem weren't consistent with a jump but a push.Red Jezza said:
Ultra was actually headed by Dr Sidney Gottlieb, who didn't commit suicide but died of pneumonia at the age of 80. G-d must have indeed loved the prick.
*****
Be warned, Jezza.
You're going to have to separate the wheat from the chaff on Ultra as every conspiranoid and his aunt has a theory about the whole sorry mess.
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