The Taxpayers Alliance: a Tory front group...

[KeyboardJockey]

Leaving aside the question of whether the TA is a Tory front I feel that it is a valid aim to question how much tax is being taken off of the average taxpayer and what sort of value the taxpayer is getting for his or her money.

I see no problem in an organisation pointing out how government wastes money on failed schemes including pfi and jobs for the boys while reducing essential services.

Why shouldn't we feel that we should have value for money when it comes to tax and services?

 

[_angel_]

Leaving aside the question of whether the TA is a Tory front I feel that it is a valid aim to question how much tax is being taken off of the average taxpayer and what sort of value the taxpayer is getting for his or her money.

I see no problem in an organisation pointing out how government wastes money on failed schemes including pfi and jobs for the boys while reducing essential services.

Why shouldn't we feel that we should have value for money when it comes to tax and services?

It might be nice if instead of waging a vendetta against benefit claimants and foreigners (as far as I can see this is all they are interested in) Would be to show where social services education etc all spend their budgets. Care for the elderly and how underfunded it is.etc

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It might be nice if instead of waging a vendetta against benefit claimants and foreigners (as far as I can see this is all they are interested in) Would be to show where social services education etc all spend their budgets. Care for the elderly and how underfunded it is.etc

Then there is a need for an organisation that does say 'why is our elderly care underfunded when we are wasting millions on pfi, the middle east, as well as attacking the other areas of waste.'

People need to make the connection between the amount of money wasted on useless guff like the wastefull layers of management and non jobs and the billions wasted on PFI and war and the lack of services'

 

[_angel_]

Then there is a need for an organisation that does say 'why is our elderly care underfunded when we are wasting millions on pfi, the middle east, as well as attacking the other areas of waste.'

People need to make the connection between the amount of money wasted on useless guff like the wastefull layers of management and non jobs and the billions wasted on PFI and war and the lack of services'

I don't think that's on the taxpayers alliances agenda tbh.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I don't think that's on the taxpayers alliances agenda tbh.

I agree but there is a need to have a go at ALL waste in the public sector.

 

[_angel_]

I agree but there is a need to have a go at ALL waste in the public sector.

Good luck in trying to open them up to criticism of management/ private business interests.

 

[Fledgling]

Fuck off Tory scum.

That directed to me or the Taxpayer's Alliance? Should it be the former it's a crying shame you have to lash out like a wounded animal at someone who's politics you have no knowledge of. But one of the downsides to this largely excellent forum is the odd comment like this, a sure sign of desperate angst that there are plenty of people out there who aren't thinking along your lines and not behaving as we should.



Good post _angel_, I suspect this alliance isn't interested in those earning 15k or less who end up paying disproportionately in stealth taxes and indirect inefficient taxation. It's a shame that this pg doesn't try and broaden its appeal. I feel very little solidarity with those who rail against taxation but are earning several times what I am.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

That directed to me or the Taxpayer's Alliance? Should it be the former it's a crying shame you have to lash out like a wounded animal at someone who's politics you have no knowledge of. But one of the downsides to this largely excellent forum is the odd comment like this, a sure sign of desperate angst that there are plenty of people out there who aren't thinking along your lines and not behaving as we should.



Good post _angel_, I suspect this alliance isn't interested in those earning 15k or less who end up paying disproportionately in stealth taxes and indirect inefficient taxation. It's a shame that this pg doesn't try and broaden its appeal. I feel very little solidarity with those who rail against taxation but are earning several times what I am.

At you, I figure if you're going to post idiotic generalised crap about people you deserved a little hostility.

 

[Fledgling]

At you, I figure if you're going to post idiotic generalised crap about people you deserved a little hostility.

I only summarised what had been said so far from several posts, I did not generalise any more than people do when reviewing something. My point was that some people seem unable to accommodate an ideological ethos different from their own and when confronted with one, some tend to resort to invective one word diatribes without taking the issue head on. I believe that I made several points, none of which were idiotic, there are reasons behind them. Clearly I've touched a nerve.

to you too.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I only summarised what had been said so far from several posts, I did not generalise any more than people do when reviewing something. My point was that some people seem unable to accommodate an ideological ethos different from their own and when confronted with one, some tend to resort to invective one word diatribes without taking the issue head on. I believe that I made several points, none of which were idiotic, there are reasons behind them. Clearly I've touched a nerve.

to you too.

No you didn't you characterised posts in the negative that didn't relate much to reality hence the

 

[untethered]

People who support left-of-centre parties have a sense of idealism about tax, believing governments will spend money to create a better, fairer, kinder society. Waste on this scale (PFI, consultancy, Trident, IT megaprojects...) eats away at that conviction and produces cynicism instead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2248847,00.html

 

[chooch]

I see no problem in an organisation pointing out how government wastes money on failed schemes including pfi and jobs for the boys while reducing essential services.

Yep, but this ain't it. This is serving the same tired old interests as the other 8000 similar groups who object to (one direction) of redistribution in principle.

It might be nice if instead of waging a vendetta against benefit claimants and foreigners (as far as I can see this is all they are interested in)

Nah. They're also against people who've not had the decency to be born to rich parents. And probably those nasty unions that make the public sector marginally less able to sack people for kicks. And anyone at the public trough, bleeding the country dry or burning our money.

Conversely, they're in favour of running the public sector like a business: privatising, cutting out the dead wood: unions, again, and reducing red tape: H & S, employees' rights, any restrictions on profiteering. Oh, and tax cuts, obviously, once they've identified x billion of savings by putting a red line through anything that sounds a bit confusing/pinko/the kind of thing geography teachers might like.

 

[bluestreak]

What chooch said.

While there is a need for change in the way taxation is run and spent etc. these are the buggers to do it.

 

[Frampton]

I always go and have a lie-down whenever I see the phrase "Taxpayers money". It's an outrageous oxymoron - similar to military-intelligence or Anarcho-Marxism - money taken from us by force. The money doesn't belong to the taxpayer at all. It belongs to smooth-talking bandits in suits somewhere down in London.

 

[Fledgling]

No you didn't you characterised posts in the negative that didn't relate much to reality hence the

Have to say I disagree with you, although carrying this on is becoming a bit pointless so I'll leave it at this. Many of the initial posts issued shock about this particular pg but did not initially elaborate. This changed over time. Personally I do not think it is unreasonable for such a pg to exist and chance that they put across, like many pgs, a rather one-sided view. But hey, that's fine. Simply dismissing it, or in fact other people you don't even know as "Tory scum" says a lot more about you than it does about me or Taxpayer's Alliance. I furthermore mentioned that people are concerned about paying too much tax; these people could be earning 10k, they could be earning 10m, I don't very much that they are all right wing/Daily Mail/facist/clueless/Tory twats/fuckwits/any other slang you care to chuck around. I then mentioned that people seem upset that there are many many people who do not share their particular point of view. Finally I believe that placing yourself on supposedly higher ground by advocating a particular viewpoint isn't actually laudable (hence the sarcasm). Generalised? Yes to an extent but no more than most. Idiotic? Not really. "Tory Scum"? Generalised idiotic crap.

 

[Darios]

Great post Fledgling.

Shame on some of you posting on this thread, your ignorance and bigotry is appalling - its clear many have not actually investigated the TPA for yourselves.

Perhaps you've read their book, The Bumper Book of Government Waste? It's an intelligent, informative and amusing (if often depressing) take on how the government makes use of tax revenues. The figures provided in the book largely speak for themselves, though the commentary is often useful. When I first read it I thought that it would have been the ideal work for a group of anarchists to have produced, highlighting the hypocrisy and awful waste by the state. But of course anarchists didn't produce it and the TPA did. Why is that?

And FYI those of you crying into your beers about who's interests you have assumed the TPA look out for, they are prominent supporters of pensioners, especially those struggling with their council tax. By all means don't take my word for it though, do your own research for fuck's sake. Or alternatively just sit here posting knee jerk comments, usually based on specious reasoning by association (it's got blue in it - it must be Tory! Exterminate! Exterminate!)

 

[cantsin]

That directed to me or the Taxpayer's Alliance? Should it be the former it's a crying shame you have to lash out like a wounded animal at someone who's politics you have no knowledge of. But one of the downsides to this largely excellent forum is the odd comment like this, a sure sign of desperate angst that there are plenty of people out there who aren't thinking along your lines and not behaving as we should.



Good post _angel_, I suspect this alliance isn't interested in those earning 15k or less who end up paying disproportionately in stealth taxes and indirect inefficient taxation. It's a shame that this pg doesn't try and broaden its appeal. I feel very little solidarity with those who rail against taxation but are earning several times what I am.

why are you lot such arrogant, but somehow utterly dim little, twonks ? ' no knowledge of ' the Tory / anti tax pressure groupss politics ? no , course not , impenetrable stuff all that 'small govt / small state /low taxes carry on - WTF ARE YOU DRIBBLING ON ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chooch]

And FYI those of you crying into your beers about who's interests you have assumed the TPA look out for, they are prominent supporters of pensioners

Marvellous. I look forward to their statement in favour of a massively increased basic pension, fully funded care for those in need and socialised medicine.

 

[lewislewis]

Public sector/public servants are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

 

[untethered]

Public sector/public servants are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Is the public sector an unqualified good thing?

Should all economic (and for that matter, social) activity be organised by the state?

 

[Darios]

Marvellous. I look forward to their statement in favour of a massively increased basic pension, fully funded care for those in need and socialised medicine.

Pure comedy gold.

They also neglected to support the palestinians, defend gay rights and take part in the worldwide fight against globalisation. Damn ingrates!

 

[fractionMan]

I think I've wandered into the twighlight zone

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Pure comedy gold.

They also neglected to support the palestinians, defend gay rights and take part in the worldwide fight against globalisation. Damn ingrates!

There was, I believe, a connection between the quoted statement and the idea of supporting pensioners. I suspect that was the original reason it was made. (Not of course that I would wish to speak for anyone else, even though that is obviously my instinct, being cod-left and middle-class and having a beard etc.)

 

[Darios]

There was, I believe, a connection between the quoted statement and the idea of supporting pensioners. I suspect that was the original reason it was made. (Not of course that I would wish to speak for anyone else, even though that is obviously my instinct, being cod-left and middle-class and having a beard etc.)

There was also a connection between them being called the Taxpayers alliance and focusing exclusively on how people are taxed and what it is spent on.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Well, let's be more precise, then.

they are prominent supporters of pensioners

Marvellous. I look forward to their statement in favour of a massively increased basic pension, fully funded care for those in need and socialised medicine.

The point being that they are not actually supporting pensioners - in the context of taxation and social care, which is after all the context here - unless they support an increase in pension, better benefits and proper medical care.

Do they? I must admit that I can't see it, but I may have missed it.

 

[Blagsta]

Great post Fledgling.

Shame on some of you posting on this thread, your ignorance and bigotry is appalling - its clear many have not actually investigated the TPA for yourselves.

Perhaps you've read their book, The Bumper Book of Government Waste? It's an intelligent, informative and amusing (if often depressing) take on how the government makes use of tax revenues. The figures provided in the book largely speak for themselves, though the commentary is often useful. When I first read it I thought that it would have been the ideal work for a group of anarchists to have produced, highlighting the hypocrisy and awful waste by the state. But of course anarchists didn't produce it and the TPA did. Why is that?

And FYI those of you crying into your beers about who's interests you have assumed the TPA look out for, they are prominent supporters of pensioners, especially those struggling with their council tax. By all means don't take my word for it though, do your own research for fuck's sake. Or alternatively just sit here posting knee jerk comments, usually based on specious reasoning by association (it's got blue in it - it must be Tory! Exterminate! Exterminate!)

Oh come on, it's not hard to work out what side of the fence these people are on! But I guess you're on the same side, being a free market libetarian.

 

[butchersapron]

The TPA published a totally dishonest report a few weeks back that was little more than a blatent argument for massively reducing NHS spending, but they hid that behind a hyerbolic headline claiming that a) under brown there's been £34 billion pumped into the NHS and that b) this fantasy figure has been utterly wasted and may even have contributed to an extra 17 000 deaths in the same period/over the last year. I think you can guess their solution. Utter loons.

See also the scabbing shite on their site attacking workers for asking for wage rises.

 

[butchersapron]

Taxpayers' Alliance admits director doesn't pay British tax

The Taxpayers' Alliance, a campaign group that calls for tax and spending cuts and claims to represent the interests of taxpayers, has admitted one of its directors does not pay British tax.

The Guardian has learned that Alexander Heath, a director of the increasingly influential free market, rightwing lobby group, lives in a farmhouse in the Loire and has not paid British tax for years.

The admission, made by Matthew Elliott, the TPA's chief executive and founder, is potentially embarrassing for the Conservative party, which has close links to the group that claims to be "the guardian of taxpayers' money, the voice of taxpayers in the media and their representative at Westminster".

 

[bluestreak]

What a cunt. Shits like him should be necklaced.

 

[butchersapron]

He said the organisation's backers suggested there was "a revolving door" between Tory donors and supporters of the TPA, although the group denies it is a front for the Conservatives. The TPA's financial backers include Sir Anthony Bamford, the owner of the JCB digger company, and Tony Gallagher, the owner of Gallagher Estates, both Conservative donors, who with 32 other businessmen have donated about £80,000 to the group through the Midlands Industrial Council.

Malcolm McAlpine, the chief executive of contractor Sir Robert McAlpine, said he had also funded the group. David Alberto, a property developer supplies office space to the group near Westminster worth an estimated £100,000 a year.

...

The TPA's links to the Conservatives include monthly meetings where speakers have included Eric Pickles, the Conservative party chairman, Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, and Daniel Hannan, the Tory Eurosceptic MEP who recently claimed the NHS was "a 60-year mistake".

There willundoubtdly be more when the investigation is published in full.