The Socialist Alliance?

[belboid]

pah, their educaton used to be much better you know. mc5 might even be able to remember a bit of marxist principal if he was ever to stop just coming on here to defend their latest nonsense

 

[Nigel]

Yes, I think you should - its Nigel fantisising again (unless he can name these 'important' people who joined - which he can't)

These p&p boards really do seem to attract a layer of complete fantasists.

There's even one above with who manages to read one thing and still has the audacity to present it as something entirely different. But then 'he knows', 'he's heard rumours'

weird people

I wouldn't give names out on a public site.
There were, in South East Three/Four from Brighton and possibly the same number from East Surrey(around Redhill) who were very good political activists both in Trade Unions and community work.

Was interested at looking at a continuity of, for a better word 'United Fronts' in the Labour Movement/Left.
So what was the position of the Millies on SLP, did they ever consider joining, if not why?
Unlike SA the SLP had a stronger link with Trade Unions even having branches joining, admitedly like Lankashire NUM mostly retired members.

 

[belboid]

Militant did attempt to join, afair, but were straightforwardly rebuffed. Arthur did not want a large organiosed group that might oppose him joining. They were even bigger than the solitary TU branch that did join, which Arthur wheeled out whenever he was looking like losing a vote.

 

[audiotech]

pah, their educaton used to be much better you know. mc5 might even be able to remember a bit of marxist principal if he was ever to stop just coming on here to defend their latest nonsense

I hold to the Marxist principle of internationalism and attacked a shit-stirrer.

 

[audiotech]

if the eduction their 'comrades' receive results in the likes of Udo and MC5

I 'failed' the eleven plus comrade.

 

[mutley]

It is funny, i don't think there has been one single post from an SWP member here about how they think the SA went, how it could have been improved, etc etc. i wonder why?

Well that's easily changed.

I'm pulled by the argument that we should have stuck at it with the SA, but that ignores two things in my opinion.

First, the SWP did have a real go with the SA in that last year or so, but it just wasn't getting anything like the boost yoiu'd expect from the anti-war movement. There was a London by-election (Brent?) where there was a real push with an SA candidate, and the result was dire. Trying something else was necessary.

Second, Respect nearly worked out a lot better than it did. Lindsey German came close to being on the London Assembly in 2004, which would have shifted the whole weight of the thing and helped to stop it becoming something that only really had legs in mainly Muslim areas.

Hindsight is gloriously clear, but I think that something else had to be tried.
What also occured to me recently is that if the forces that are lined up in NO2EU had joined Respect in the first place, it would have been a totaly different ball game. Much bigger pole of attraction, much more multi-polar which might have stopped certain people getting a bit big for their boots.

I would also say that I am genuinely convinced that some real lessons have been learnt by the SWP's somewhat bruising experiences, judging from the current internal stuff. Some ppl won't believe that of course, time will tell if there is going to be any shift in how the SWP operates. (Oh and we're not going away, I've been at some refreshingly young meetings in the last few months.)

Now you can all throw rocks at me.

 

[belboid]

Well that's easily changed.

good man

I'm pulled by the argument that we should have stuck at it with the SA, but that ignores two things in my opinion.

First, the SWP did have a real go with the SA in that last year or so, but it just wasn't getting anything like the boost yoiu'd expect from the anti-war movement. There was a London by-election (Brent?) where there was a real push with an SA candidate, and the result was dire. Trying something else was necessary.

trying something else was indeed necessary, but that doesn't simply mean dumping what had been built up. the SWP got even worse results on the few occasons they stood as SWP (or IS), they didnt disband tho, did they?

Second, Respect nearly worked out a lot better than it did.

great quote I nearly got much better o level results than I did, Gordon Brown nearly was a better PM than he was (oops, slipping tense already)

Lindsey German came close to being on the London Assembly in 2004, which would have shifted the whole weight of the thing and helped to stop it becoming something that only really had legs in mainly Muslim areas.

but why was it like that? that was the never sufficiently addressed question

Hindsight is gloriously clear, but I think that something else had to be tried.
What also occured to me recently is that if the forces that are lined up in NO2EU had joined Respect in the first place, it would have been a totaly different ball game. Much bigger pole of attraction, much more multi-polar which might have stopped certain people getting a bit big for their boots.

this is the key question. why didnt they join? why didn't they consider joining Respect at all?

I would also say that I am genuinely convinced that some real lessons have been learnt by the SWP's somewhat bruising experiences, judging from the current internal stuff. Some ppl won't believe that of course, time will tell if there is going to be any shift in how the SWP operates. (Oh and we're not going away, I've been at some refreshingly young meetings in the last few months.)

well, we'll see. No evidence of that up here yet, but who knows.

Now you can all throw rocks at me.

can't afford rocks these days, only gravel i'm afraid

 

[mutley]

The thing about Respect 'nearly' being better is that in elections, you really can nearly get someone in, but if you miss by a slim margin in the long run you might as well have got fuck all. So LG was very close to being on the London assembly, and they missed a second councillor that time in Preston by 7 votes. LG getting in really would have set the thing up much more convincingly right from the start.

 

[Nigel]

Militant did attempt to join, afair, but were straightforwardly rebuffed. Arthur did not want a large organiosed group that might oppose him joining. They were even bigger than the solitary TU branch that did join, which Arthur wheeled out whenever he was looking like losing a vote.

As far as you know was there any talk of the Millies handing the paper over.

 

[belboid]

As far as you know was there any talk of the Millies handing the paper over.

I dont recall the conversation ever getting that far. I can just about imagine that Arthur might have made something like that a proviso, cos he knew they'd never go along with it, but even then, I doubt it.

 

[dennisr]

As far as you know was there any talk of the Millies handing the paper over.

you are like the inspector clouseau of the left.

beforehand you were telling us about this 'inside information' as a virtual fact. now you ask how true it was.

daft apeth

 

[dennisr]

I wouldn't give names out on a public site.
There were, in South East Three/Four from Brighton and possibly the same number from East Surrey(around Redhill) who were very good political activists both in Trade Unions and community work

They sound like the 'leading lights' alluded to earlier

Was interested at looking at a continuity of, for a better word 'United Fronts' in the Labour Movement/Left.

Why - for academic reference purposes??

I think you will find that the SPs definition of what a united front entailed- the principles involved - and Arthurs differed somewhat

Couldn't you work that one out - what with all your inside *touches nose, seemingly knowingly* understanding

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Well that's easily changed.

I'm pulled by the argument that we should have stuck at it with the SA, but that ignores two things in my opinion.

First, the SWP did have a real go with the SA in that last year or so, but it just wasn't getting anything like the boost yoiu'd expect from the anti-war movement. There was a London by-election (Brent?) where there was a real push with an SA candidate, and the result was dire. Trying something else was necessary.

Second, Respect nearly worked out a lot better than it did. Lindsey German came close to being on the London Assembly in 2004, which would have shifted the whole weight of the thing and helped to stop it becoming something that only really had legs in mainly Muslim areas.

Hindsight is gloriously clear, but I think that something else had to be tried.
What also occured to me recently is that if the forces that are lined up in NO2EU had joined Respect in the first place, it would have been a totaly different ball game. Much bigger pole of attraction, much more multi-polar which might have stopped certain people getting a bit big for their boots.

I would also say that I am genuinely convinced that some real lessons have been learnt by the SWP's somewhat bruising experiences, judging from the current internal stuff. Some ppl won't believe that of course, time will tell if there is going to be any shift in how the SWP operates. (Oh and we're not going away, I've been at some refreshingly young meetings in the last few months.)

Now you can all throw rocks at me.

What a funny post: to caricature 'It wasn't the SWP'd fault it was the anti-war protesters. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was the voters. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was the SP's, RMT's and CPB's. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was George Galloway's. There's never been a better time to be a socialist!'

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[belboid]

it doesbnt actually say that at all Louis, I dont think he's right, but there's no need to make things up, the truth is bad enough

 

[Louis MacNeice]

A caricature can refer to a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness. In literature, a caricature is a description of a person using exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others.

Caricatures can be insulting or complimentary and can serve a political purpose or be drawn solely for entertainment.​

Cheers and thanks to Wikipedia - Louis MacNeice

 

[Streathamite]

Your actual post is shit-stirring and about as sincere as your claim of a ban all those years ago.

[/little think]

stop lying. everyone knows he was

 

[mutley]

A caricature can refer to a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness. In literature, a caricature is a description of a person using exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others.

Caricatures can be insulting or complimentary and can serve a political purpose or be drawn solely for entertainment.​

Cheers and thanks to Wikipedia - Louis MacNeice

Well on that basis your post was bollocks. I noted that Respect didn't get as many votes as hoped for. That's not 'blaming the voters' it's a simple fact. And I didn't even mention Galloway. On the SP and CPB, again, I wish they'd joined, but I haven't 'blamed' them.

But if a caricature is to 'exaggerate or distort the essence of a person', and I call you an arsehole, that wouldn't really qualify as caricature. It's just a fact.

(It should be noted that Dennisr is in fact far more devastating in his response. He just ignored me completely)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Well done Mutley that was really very good.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[tbaldwin]

What a funny post: to caricature 'It wasn't the SWP'd fault it was the anti-war protesters. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was the voters. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was the SP's, RMT's and CPB's. It wasn't the SWP's fault it was George Galloway's. There's never been a better time to be a socialist!'

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Reminds me of when i was in Red Action...It was always somebody elses fault when alliances fell apart....I guess that is how most left groups operate not just the SWP.

 

[Nigel]

They sound like the 'leading lights' alluded to earlier


Why - for academic reference purposes??

I think you will find that the SPs definition of what a united front entailed- the principles involved - and Arthurs differed somewhat

Couldn't you work that one out - what with all your inside *touches nose, seemingly knowingly* understanding

But now you are working with CPB who still in theory claim to have a popular front strategy.

 

[Nigel]

Third Time Lucky

Reminds me of when i was in Red Action...It was always somebody elses fault when alliances fell apart....I guess that is how most left groups operate not just the SWP.

The whole point would be to break out of this rut, surely many people involved in these organisations must see that this mindset is counter productive, and the cult mentality involved is diminishing in credibility.

After all Marxists in these groups claim to understand the concept of dialectical processes.

 

[tbaldwin]

The whole point would be to break out of this rut, surely many people involved in these organisations must see that this mindset is counter productive, and the cult mentality involved is diminishing in credibility.

.

Yes but the problem is that people who see through that cult mentality just leave disillusioned.
And leave the everdiminsihing number of headbangers to gain the ODD new recruit and keep going.

 

[dennisr]

But now you are working with CPB who still in theory claim to have a popular front strategy.

*sigh*

do you consider this a witty/relevant/insightful point (delete as appropriate)?

i am not going to repeat the nature of the electoral alliance yet again for the twenty billienth time, for the hard of thinking.

you, udo and the other twat - before the internet you lot would have been ignored in real life - sent to coventry

honestly, this entire thread - like so many others - ends up dragged down into the dribbling inainity of 6th form half-baked 'experts'

what a bunch of fuckwits

 

[Nigel]

Yes but the problem is that people who see through that cult mentality just leave disillusioned.
And leave the everdiminsihing number of headbangers to gain the ODD new recruit and keep going.

Many of the these people still stay politically active(even with a small p) & something has to click in with the leadership of that this cult like herd mentality can only get limited results.

 

[tbaldwin]

Many of the these people still stay politically active(even with a small p) & something has to click in with the leadership of that this cult like herd mentality can only get limited results.

A lot of people who leave narrow left organisations clearly see the need for a more broad based organisation to achieve social change.
But not many see any potential in bringing togther lots of dogmatic groups. I think the history of the Socialist Alliance,SLP,RESPECT etc shows exactly why....Its just another dead end....
I think we need a pragmatic left wing alternative to the main parties but i really dont see it happening anytime soon.

 

[Nigel]

A lot of people who leave narrow left organisations clearly see the need for a more broad based organisation to achieve social change.
But not many see any potential in bringing togther lots of dogmatic groups. I think the history of the Socialist Alliance,SLP,RESPECT etc shows exactly why....Its just another dead end....
I think we need a pragmatic left wing alternative to the main parties but i really dont see it happening anytime soon.

What's your feeling on why the IWCA fell into demise?

 

[tbaldwin]

What's your feeling on why the IWCA fell into demise?

Exactly the same things happened,from what ive heard. Only success seems to have been Oxford. But the leadership of the organisation was always going to be the people (RA and friends) who initiated it. Very narrow world view. Better than some but ultimately another pointless exercise from the hysterical left.

 

[The39thStep]

For the IWCA the reality is that despite the possibilities there is always capacity problem.For it to be local they can't parachute people in from outside, to expand locally takes time.They are simply always outnumbered and always out gunned. Despite this its been reported that two more IWCA branches are being set up.

 

[tbaldwin]

For the IWCA the reality is that despite the possibilities there is always capacity problem.For it to be local they can't parachute people in from outside, to expand locally takes time.They are simply always outnumbered and always out gunned. Despite this its been reported that two more IWCA branches are being set up.

Terrible terrible example of deluded left thinking....After 15 years in existence they are blaming it on a capacity problem....Laughably sad.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

On the SP and CPB, again, I wish they'd joined, but I haven't 'blamed' them.

Well, you might wish that the Socialist Party or the RMT had joined but your party didn't exactly go out of its way to encourage them to do so.

The Socialist Party asked to be involved in the discussions which led to the formation of Respect and got a slightly longer version of "piss off" as a response. We were then offered the right to join Respect as a finished organisation, with its structure and politics already decided behind the scenes and without being allowed any input at all.

The RMT, when it last mooted standing candidates, was met with an extremely arrogant and haughty response from the then SWP led Respect which amounted in its essentials to "back us or fuck off".