The Socialist Alliance?

[belboid]

Essentially the implicit message of this section is that foreign workers are being dumped in Britain and exploited and we should oppose the free movement of labour.

While I agree that the section in question is written very very poorly, and I wouldn't be happy about going door-to-door round here promoting it, but I also don't think it says what you say it does.

For one, it is in no way explicitly 'anti-immigrant', or however you phrased it before, and I take it from your belateed silence on that front that you now accept that.

But also what is being discussed in that section is explicitly not the 'free movement of labour'. It is the movement of tied labour, labour effectively owned and controlled by company bosses, who move workers around he world in order to maximise their profits, under-cutting locally agreed T's & C's as and when they can. Opposing that is not opposing workers themselves deciding where hey want to live and work.

 

[belboid]

Stop defending the indefensible, Dennisr

Stop making bollocks up then Udo

 

[Udo Erasmus]

While I agree that the section in question is written very very poorly, and I wouldn't be happy about going door-to-door round here promoting it, but I also don't think it says what you say it does.

For one, it is in no way explicitly 'anti-immigrant', or however you phrased it before, and I take it from your belateed silence on that front that you now accept that.

But also what is being discussed in that section is explicitly not the 'free movement of labour'. It is the movement of tied labour, labour effectively owned and controlled by company bosses, who move workers around he world in order to maximise their profits, under-cutting locally agreed T's & C's as and when they can. Opposing that is not opposing workers themselves deciding where hey want to live and work.

I don't particularly want to dwell on No2EU as there are other thread to discuss that. I only mentioned it, because I disagree with the SPs triumphalism - they are always pure, unimpeccable, make no mistakes socialsits & the SWP are opportunnist, control freaks etc. I have cordial relations with my local SP people & no particular grudge against them, but the idea that they are whiter-than-white and that no criticisms can be made of their approach and orientation is silly.

Belboid, let me rephrase it this way: If you were writing a socialist leaflet on workers rights, would you begin by talking about foreign workers & concentrating on that issue as the major one? Is the major cause of the problems working class people face in Britain due to foreign workers being 'socially dumped' in Britain? Neither me, friends, family or work colleagues have personally come across these workers who've been dumped here, the emphasis seems very peculiar, while it may have been an issue in the Lindesy dispute, this isn't an issue for the majority of working class people in Britain & phrasing a leaflet that way can only lead to very bad results! At a time when I'm getting leaflets from UKIP and BNP saying 'No to unlimited immigration' 'No to EU rule' - I don't think that No2EU is actually unwittingly contributing to this kind of analysis by this 'poor wording'

This strange emphasis of what doesn't seem to be a major issue can only fuel racism.

 

[belboid]

I think your own 'poor wording' has meant you've just contradicted yourself. Or it may be that your excessive double negatives just make it deeply confusing.

Have you accepted that there is no explicit call for immigration controls yet, btw, or are you just avoiding that issue, having been caught out, again.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Have you accepted that there is no explicit call for immigration controls yet, btw, or are you just avoiding that issue, having been caught out, again.

The overall logic of No2EUs arguments can only lead to racist conclusions, if they are taken to their logical conclusion. The platform implicitly is arguing for restrictions on immigration, the references to so-called freedom of movement of labour imply that they'd like to see it restricted, the explicit calls for immigration controls have been made at No2EU meetings - numerous reports on internet and blogosphere - general format, Socialist Party speaker says No2EU isn't nationalist etc, CPB speaker gets up and says yes it is!

No2EU doesn't argue that the solution to the exploitation of migrant workers and social dumping is that every worker regardless of nationality must have equal rights & argue for recruiting migrant wokers to unions - which is the traditional socialist solution.

If I were a migrant worker or foreign worker, how does No2EU support me? Where is the section opposing deportations, the UK Borders agency regime, racist scapegoating of asylum seekers and sturdy defence of immigrants?

There is none.

It's disgusting.

 

[dennisr]

As it happens, I am the son of immigrants

Don't play that stupid game you idiot. You will loose on that front as well - you see me and my family are genuinely "more oppressed than yeaw". I can pull rank there as well. (many of us ARE fecking migrant workers)

you could not give a shit about migrant workers - you talk out of your arsehole and are only interested in talking - and talking spurious, divisive and lying crap at that. Your mum and dad would be ashamed of your idiocy. You are an embarrassment to the family.

 

[belboid]

The overall logic of No2EUs arguments can only lead to racist conclusions, if they are taken to their logical conclusion. The platform implicitly is arguing for restrictions on immigration, the references to so-called freedom of movement of labour imply that they'd like to see it restricted, the explicit calls for immigration controls have been made at No2EU meetings - numerous reports on internet and blogosphere - general format, Socialist Party speaker says No2EU isn't nationalist etc, CPB speaker gets up and says yes it is!

No2EU doesn't argue that the solution to the exploitation of migrant workers and social dumping is that every worker regardless of nationality must have equal rights & argue for recruiting migrant wokers to unions - which is the traditional socialist solution.

If I were a migrant worker or foreign worker, how does No2EU support me? Where is the section opposing deportations, the UK Borders agency regime, racist scapegoating of asylum seekers and sturdy defence of immigrants?

There is none.

It's disgusting.

A simple 'no, I made it up' would have sufficed Udo. But thanks for pointing out at length that you are a liar and a hypocrite

 

[dennisr]

It's disgusting.

The only disgusting thing here is how idiots like you find it 'amusing' to play troll politics.

Get back in the gutter

You would make a good establishment politician of journalist. "numerous reports" ha, ha

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Don't play that stupid game you idiot. You will loose on that front as well - you see me and my family are genuinely "more oppressed than yeaw". I can pull rank there as well. (many of us ARE fecking migrant workers)

you could not give a shit about migrant workers - you talk out of your arsehole and are only interested in talking - and talking spurious, divisive and lying crap at that. Your mum and dad would be ashamed of your idiocy. You are an embarrassment to the family.

People will note that all I have done is strongly quibbled the strange situation where No2EU has nothing strongly defending asylum seekers, immigrants and refugees against scapegoating and racism & in its section on Workers Rights focuses on foreign workers. You would think that given that a lot of workers may be prone to scapegoating immigrants, No2EU would have a strong statement arguing that it is bosses not the rich fellow workers who are the source of our problems. Why does the section on workers rights on your website talk predominantly about foreign workers? Do you have a problem with that?

In response to this Dennisr has let fly a volley of abuse.

As to stupid games, I didn't start this one. I was merely responding to your personal comments which are mighty strange as I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me.

As it happens, I care deeply about the plight of migrant workers and have been involved and supportive of local anti-deporation campaigns and general anti-racist campaigns.

But why would an asylum seeker or migrant worker join No2EU given that you have nothing to stand up for that section of the class?

Even Respect, which in my opinion had a weak position of not calling for open borders, had explict statements on all election literature defending asylum seekers & immigrants and opposing racist scapegoating, the failure of No2EU to have any explicit defence of immigrants is opportunism.

It is No2EU who has one foot in the gutter.

 

[dennisr]

racists...

How can the BNP really be defeated?
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/7262

 

[dennisr]

In response to this Dennisr has let fly a volley of abuse

I politely replied with politics.
You then resorted to lies - you continue those lies.
Only then did I give up and started treating you with the contempt you deserve.


There are very few people I have genuine contempt for - but you, the real you - is one of them.
Its a shame you are not still in the SWP - you used to do them tons of damage here with your idiocy.

If I met you in real life I would seriously have a strong desire to beat you fucking senseless you arsehole. You are a cowardly shit who would not risk real or honest discussion with real people. you have never done one fecking thing for those migrant workers you are trying to use, falsely, as a stick to beat genuine activists with. You are a charlaten and a hypocrite.

"I supported them" - yer, right - liar. "all I did was..." - liar. "I care deeply" - liar.

You see I'm honest, straight up not a lying troll cunt

 

[dennisr]

just fuck off you poisonous tosser

back to your fantasies

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I politely replied with politics.
You then resorted to lies - you continue those lies.
Only then did I give up and started treating you with the contempt you deserve.

If I met you in real life I would seriously have a strong desire to beat you fucking senseless you arsehole. You are a cowardly shit who would not risk real or honest discussion with real people. you have never done one fecking thing for those migrant workers you are trying to use, falsely, as a stick to beat genuine activists with. You are a charlaten and a hypocrite.

You see I'm honest, straight up not a lying troll cunt

Stop the waffle and just point me to the section on No2EU's website where it defends immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees?

Explain why a section on workers rights concentrates on foreign workers?
http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html
If you were writing something on workers rights for an election would you normally talk mainly about foreigners?!?!

I have honest and real discussions with real people all the time, it is precisely because of the failure of No2EU to connect with real people whose concerns are not the EU etc. that I have a problem with it. It's a missed opportunity to tap into genuine popular anger against politicians, the rich and powerful in these credit crunched times.

I am as genuine an activist as you.

You demean yourself by posting personal abuse. Maybe hanging around with Stalinists is influencing your icepick method of 'debate'

 

[dennisr]

I am as genuine an activist as you.

you are a liar

You demean yourself by posting

 

[belboid]

I have honest and real discussions

not on here you dont

 

[butchersapron]

udo, you really do not appear to have learnt anything since you were sent to coventry by most of the P&P regulars a few years back. Can you remember why that happened?

 

[audiotech]

was that before, or after your flounce?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Did I ask to be pointed to where a campaign has any defence of asylum seekers and refugees on its website? Or maybe I wondered why a socialist campaign would have a section on 'workers rights' that concentrated principally on foreign workers?

 

[butchersapron]

No, you tried to smear another poster as racist - to the utter disgust of most here. Hence being sent to coventry.

 

[butchersapron]

was that before, or after your flounce?

Do you mean before or after i was banned? Have little a think about it. You may be suprised at the information availible to you to uncover this mystery in my actual post.

 

[audiotech]

Do you mean before or after i was banned? Have little a think about it. You may be suprised at the information availible to you to uncover this mystery in my actual post.

Your actual post is shit-stirring and about as sincere as your claim of a ban all those years ago.

[/little think]

 

[belboid]

whereas your post is...??


It is funny, i don't think there has been one single post from an SWP member here about how they think the SA went, how it could have been improved, etc etc. i wonder why?

 

[butchersapron]

Claim of a ban? Ok, outright lies from you it is then. I take it your dishonest approach here is in solidarity with udo's smears - comrades in arms from the same political tradition (which you both actually spit on by acting like this).

 

[Socrates]

Comrade Erasmus has a point. The whole No2Eu thing is very peculiar & bizarre. One wonders who cooked up this nonsense. The section on workers rights is all about foreign workers.

 

[articul8]

Comrade Erasmus has a point. The whole No2Eu thing is very peculiar & bizarre. One wonders who cooked up this nonsense. The section on workers rights is all about foreign workers.

I don't get all the subtext and pre-history with Udo. But what I do know is he is attacking someone with a longstanding record of anti-racist and anti-fascist activism, on the grounds that an electoral platform (of which that person's group is but one component) has apparently made some "sin of ommission".

The platform - which is limited and poorly judged as has already been accepted - is certainly not amenable to accusations of barely concealed anti-immigration racism or xenophobia as Udo is trying to claim. The whole point is to stop the exploitation of foreign workers being used to undercut the pay and conditions, and hence force an exploitative race to the bottom with workers currently employed in the UK. Udo is trying to read some subtext about race and immigration controls into it when it's not there, and is doing it in a self-satisfied and sectarian trolling kind of way.

 

[belboid]

Comrade Erasmus has a point. The whole No2Eu thing is very peculiar & bizarre. One wonders who cooked up this nonsense. The section on workers rights is all about foreign workers.

well, in case you hadn't noticed the Lavall and Viking cases are incredibly important in terms of workers rights, and the 'free' movement of labour. As this is a European election, the group has concentrated it's fire on those issues, and similar ones. This election won't change UK employment law, so it isn't mentioned.

I have criticised No2EU, and probably wil ldo again, but can manage to do so without the shirtty lies and deliberate mis-reprensetations made by Udo.

 

[audiotech]

Claim of a ban? Ok, outright lies from you it is then. I take it your dishonest approach here is in solidarity with udo's smears - comrades in arms from the same political tradition (which you both actually spit on by acting like this).

div

 

[JimPage]

Was it simply the last gasp of a dying British left, or did it have the potential to grow into something much bigger? A new genuinely left political alternative, not just electoral but campaigning?

What i hope is that coming out of these elections, the news of the advances in France and Germany of left parties there will inspire people here to get their act together.

 

[liampreston]

And by all accounts, anything post-NO2EU will be going on without the SWP. I have learnt over the years that an alliance of any kind plus SWP = disaster.

 

[dennisr]

And by all accounts, anything post-NO2EU will be going on without the SWP. I have learnt over the years that an alliance of any kind plus SWP = disaster.

increasingly, my personal opinion is that it won't be such a bad thing!
that's certainly my experience, as case of 'with friends like that who needs enemies' - as much as know that's a wee bit sectarian.

if the eduction their 'comrades' receive results in the likes of Udo and MC5