The Socialist Alliance?

[dennisr]

but it wasn't only a year. Fer sure the SA's were a lot quieter as all the other groups did their own thing (as you would have, as the federalist structure would have just as easilly accomodated), but it was longer than that before the SA was shut down.

Fine, give or take a few months - dependent on the SWPs whims.

(all your other points i think we've done before, and almost to death)

Yep, agreed

 

[The39thStep]

The Socialist Alliance was riven apart by the clash of egos between its two biggest organisations - the SP and SWP - in my opinion. But actually, I think its programme derived its strength from the coming together of these two different traditions of trotskyism, and having a socialist programme meant that like the SSP, the Alliance had potential to recruit people from a libertarian milieu. I think a future electoral alliance would have to be more akin to the New Anti-Capitalist Party in France than Die Linke. I have no desire to repeat the experience of Respect of uniting with liberals, opportunists and careerists & building something that isn't explicitly focused on class struggle from below.

This opening paragrapgh sums up everything wrong with the cobweb left; the 'strength' of Trotskyism, the recruitment of libertarian milieu and basing the future on what ever Trot based coalition seems to be doing well at the time in Europe.

First what we needed was a revolutionary party based on what the Trots thought a communist party should look like then we needed a English SSP , then we needed an English Linke and now we need a English version or perhaps even British version of The Anti Capitlaist party in France.

Of course their is potential for working class resistance but the Trostskyust version of 'class struggle form below' tends to be not that of tye working class but how the vanguard parties tend to want this class struggle to look like. If the left went in and canvassed what the local working class saw as priorities and then campaigned on those then it might be different but I suspect any new anti cap party would be deciding that the key issues for the working class were climate change one week student grants the next followed by no borders.

Get out on the estates where the BNP are canvassing and organise a political alternative that is actually built within the local working class based on their needs.

Personally I will settle for a left wing version of the BNP

 

[Nigel Irritable]

sadly it wasn't just the people you mention that were lambasted in such a manner,

The "independents" were, by their very nature a mixed bag. The "independents" who cleaved to the SWP were suckers plain and simple.

Your recollection re membership figures is also wrong, yes it went down when the SP left, as you would expect. But it rose again (the not massively) in the next couple of years.

The formal membership of the SA was, as far as I am aware, at its height in late 2001. Now, the paper membership isn't all that meaningful a metric anyway, as most members of the affiliates never took out individual SA membership anyway. More meaningful was the collapse in SA activity which took place immediately after the SP - and with them all of the councillors affiliated to the SA, both SP members and others, and the largest chunk of their prominent trade unionists - left. There was then a brief push by the SWP to prove that the SA still had legs, but it in fact continued to decline on the ground. I gave Lambeth as an example because that's where I was. It wasn't a Socialist Party dominated area of the SA by any means (far from it). Over the next year it went from three local SAs to two to one to one that didn't meet regularly and then in the next year to none.

This is because the SWP's political approach (aggressive and arrogant towards workers who might have been allies) and its organisational practices (on again, off again fronts) were completely unable to attract any significant new forces. As they gradually got fed up with sitting in a room with a bunch of little sects and nobody much else they themselves disengaged and when they smelled a tastier opportunity, they grabbed it.

The Socialist Party's proposed organisational structure, by the way, would have given power to significant minorities to block rash and counterproductive SA decisions. And believe me, those facilities would have been used in situations like the CATP one.

 

[JHE]

Personally I will settle for a left wing version of the BNP

Have you any nominations for the role of left-wing Nick Griffin?

 

[poster342002]

It was nothing but a bad joke. It would come last in elections (did it ever come in any higher than that?), but from the hype afterwards you'd think they were on the verge of taking parliament.

In fact, this outfit probably marked the beginning of my total disillusionment with the left.

 

[dennisr]

the beginning of my total disillusionment

liar - you've been like that since you were born

 

[poster342002]

I wonder if the SA had survived as a pluralistic organisation it would have been a vehicle to encourage working class militancy, community, and workplace organisation.

No, I think it was inherently and intrinsically fucked form the start - for a variety of reasons

 

[Nigel]

http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html - admittedly a somewhat bizarre, rambling, unclear formulation
+ numerous reports of No2EU meetings where the CPB who run it have apparently explicitly called for immigration controls and made it clear that this is what No2EU stands for.

Can't see any evidence in this web page anything about immigration controls.
Can you point out specifically where this is quoted?

However the whole policy of 'thinking global acting local" is incorporated within the idea of defending local jobs and industry.

One point that is brought up here is the racist dimension of 'Fortress Europe' which is something that many criticising this campaign have not taken into account as victimisation against no-white people, especially with regards to work and housing, especially commonwealth citizens who have a long and well developed affinity with Britain.

"The recent protests at Lindsey, supported by workers across Britain, were not against foreign workers or xenophobic. These workers were simply defending the fundamental right to work under union agreements – a right not given by EU directives or treaties."

"The so-called ‘free movement’ of labour is part of the development of a deeply racist Fortress Europe which would increasingly exclude people from outside the EU and undermine wages and working conditions inside the bloc."

 

[poster342002]

liar - you've been like that since you were born

Jump back in time 18 years or so and you'll find I was a typical platitude-mouthing, slogan-parroting drone of the trot left.

THAT'S why I know it's all crap - I've been there.

 

[Das Uberdog]

No, I think it was inherently and intrinsically fucked form the start - for a variety of reasons

I thought for a second about trying to make a joke about you referring to yourself in First Person Singular, but decided it wouldn't be funny. I'm sure you're happy to know.

 

[dennisr]

THAT'S why I know it's all crap - I've been there.

you are a liar (as well as being tedious) you've never done owt in your life.

you read about it on the internet somewhere and misplaced some anger over the subject.

as people ask every fecking time you appear you sad tosser -

'why bother if its all so fecking hopeless?'

fuck off, you have nothing to say - you are the drone here

 

[dennisr]

Can't see any evidence in this web page anything about immigration controls.

That's because he does not have any - its slander and smears as a replacement for political nouce

another liar

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Dennisr that you can't see that No2EU is putting forward a reactionary nationalistic programme worries me.

The link clearly seems to oppose the free movement of labour.

Do you not think it odd that a section of your website on 'workers rights' begins by complaining about migrant workers being socially dumped in Britain?
If I were writing on Workers Rights I wouldn't open by talking about migrant workers, I'd talk about what British bosses are up to and how workers have fought about it.

If ‘food-miles’ represent an unacceptably large carbon footprint, then ‘labour-miles’ and shunting human beings around Europe in the pursuit of profit is even more damaging.

So now immigrants are bad because they contribute to global warming.

Do you not see how this is all dodgy as fuck?!

The opening phrase is:

The social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain is being carried out under EU rules demanding the “free movement of capital, goods, services and labour” within the EU.

This would imply that you are against the free movement of goods, services and labour, no?

To be honest, the whole thing is so confused, scrambled and bizarre that is hard to see what you are arguing! Is this really the best way to rally people to fight for workers rights?

http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html

 

[poster342002]

as people ask every fecking time you appear you sad tosser -

'why bother if its all so fecking hopeless?'

fuck off, you have nothing to say - you are the drone here

Whatever .. keep on doing the same old thing for another 30 years whilst expecting a different result.

 

[dennisr]

Dennisr that you can't see that No2EU is putting forward a reactionary nationalistic programme worries me.!

Idiots like you really don't have a clue.

Your ability to but 2 and 2 together and make 63 is astounding

maybe its just the desperation at being caught out as a liar??

I made the mistake of trying to treat you as a serious contributor with something serious to say for a while, someone interested in genuine discussion, looking for real solutions to the problems we face - I forgot what a complete arsehole you has always showed yourself up to be. I won't forget that again.

 

[dennisr]

Whatever .. keep on doing the same old thing for another 30 years whilst expecting a different result.

dickhead, meet Udo,

Udo meet dickhead.

You will get on well together

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Dennisr, you are resorting to abuse, because you can't politically defend this crap.

So do you think that this is promoting workers unity? That migrant workers bad for the planet?

If ‘food-miles’ represent an unacceptably large carbon footprint, then ‘labour-miles’ and shunting human beings around Europe in the pursuit of profit is even more damaging.

http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html

Can you point me to the bit in "workers rights" section of your website, where you actually defend migrant workers and immigrants?

Where is the section on No2EU website that defends asylum seekers, once an essential feature on any left wing electoral challenge?

Why would a migrant worker in Britain vote for No2EU there's nothing in the section on workers rights defending his/her rights?!

At at time when racism is being whipped up against immigrants as the source of social problems in Britain, this ommission is playing with fire.

 

[liampreston]

I have been on Urban since I lost my first local election, and having by accident found Urban through searching for (and reacting to) a discussion about Michael Lavellete, who just won such a safe Labour ward.

The SA had SO MUCH potential. Everyone at the time seemed to be talking a lot about the potential, but then the usual eating away at the small details broke the walls down.

I actually felt the SA could have worked, indeed it could still do. But the era of Respect (for mostly bad, it seems), derailed one alliance in favour for a deeply flawed coalition.

 

[Nigel]

SLP & SA

As this thread is fixated around the role of CWI around SA, would be interesting to examine its relationship ot the previous manifestation: SLP

As far as rumour went the Millies/SP were offered to play a major role in the SLP if they were to hand the paper over. Some members of the CWI left the Millis/SP & joined the SLP and presumably left possibly re-joining the CWI or going their seperate way.

Much of the demise of the SLP, in my opinion would be the lack of maturity within Trotskyist groupings and very unprincipled, authoritarian beaurocratic, if not Machiavellian & Bullying way in which Communists operated.

This not that long after the SA was established

 

[JHE]

As this thread is fixated around the role of CWI around SA, would be interesting to examine its relationship ot the previous manifestation: SLP

As far as rumour went the Millies/SP were offered to play a major role in the SLP if they were to hand the paper over. Some members of the CWI left the Millis/SP & joined the SLP and presumably left possibly re-joining the CWI or going their seperate way.

Much of the demise of the SLP, in my opinion would be the lack of maturity within Trotskyist groupings and very unprincipled, authoritarian beaurocratic, if not Machiavellian & Bullying way in which Communists operated.

This not that long after the SA was established

I've never heard that story before about the SLP - Ego Arthur Himself? - offering the SP "a major role". I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

It is, however, true and very strange that at one point in the SLP saga the old Tanky, Scargill, did grant a prominent role to an obscure Trot sect. (Perhaps someone will be along later to remind us what the sect was called.)

They were later cast aside - as indeed have many other factions been, including even the Tankies' Tankies of Comrade Brar's Stalin Society.

 

[Nigel]

I've never heard that story before about the SLP - Ego Arthur Himself? - offering the SP "a major role". I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

It is, however, true and very strange that at one point in the SLP saga the old Tanky, Scargill, did grant a prominent role to an obscure Trot sect. (Perhaps someone will be along later to remind us what the sect was called.)

They were later cast aside - as indeed have many other factions been, including even the Tankies' Tankies of Comrade Brar's Stalin Society.

Royston Bull was far the most destructive(and entertaining) tanky going.

 

[JHE]

Royston Bull was far the most destructive(and entertaining) tanky going.

I know very little about his sect, except that it stuck (sticks?) to a strongly anti-gay line. I can't remember whether they decided homosexuality was a bourgeois perversion or a petit bourgeois one, but it certainly wasn't something found among good proletarian Marxist Leninists.

Great name, though: Royston Bull.

 

[dennisr]

Dennisr, you are resorting to abuse, because you can't politically defend this crap.

So do you think that this is promoting workers unity? That migrant workers bad for the planet?

Don't be stupid. I do not have to defend anything - politically or other wise that does not exist in the first place. While poorly worded it is certainly nothing like you present. I would have to have something to defend in the first place - do you understand this simple concept?

You are simply lying for the sake of it - I suppose you find that amusing? - 'war is peace', 'black is white'

you really are an idiot. you always have been an idiot on these boards. years of tedious trolling disguised as 'politics'. given the people you are accusing of racism have done a sight more countering real existing racism on the ground you should have at least a tiny bit of shame - you don't though.

 

[dennisr]

I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

Yes, I think you should - its Nigel fantisising again (unless he can name these 'important' people who joined - which he can't)

These p&p boards really do seem to attract a layer of complete fantasists.

There's even one above with who manages to read one thing and still has the audacity to present it as something entirely different. But then 'he knows', 'he's heard rumours'

weird people

 

[dennisr]

At at time when racism is being whipped up against immigrants as the source of social problems in Britain, this ommission is playing with fire.

you really are a vicious cunt - its hard not to take seriously.

as if you give a toss about migrant workers.

 

[Jean-Luc]

It is, however, true and very strange that at one point in the SLP saga the old Tanky, Scargill, . . .

Is it really accurate to describe Scargill as a "tankie". I thought that referred to those Stalinists who supported the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia. I think he was critical of this as were his (presumably now former) friends of the Morning Star. But he did justify the entry of Russian tanks into Hungary where they were actually used to shoot down workers.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Dennisr, you are resorting to abuse, because you can't politically defend this crap.

So do you think that this is promoting workers unity? That migrant workers bad for the planet?



http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html

The quote you provide clearly sees the profit system as the problem; it is bad for human beings shunting them around and it is bad for the planet. Do you disgree with either of these appreciations?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[belboid]

The formal membership of the SA was, as far as I am aware, at its height in late 2001. Now, the paper membership isn't all that meaningful a metric anyway, as most members of the affiliates never took out individual SA membership anyway. More meaningful was the collapse in SA activity which took place immediately after the SP - and with them all of the councillors affiliated to the SA, both SP members and others, and the largest chunk of their prominent trade unionists - left. There was then a brief push by the SWP to prove that the SA still had legs, but it in fact continued to decline on the ground. I gave Lambeth as an example because that's where I was. It wasn't a Socialist Party dominated area of the SA by any means (far from it). Over the next year it went from three local SAs to two to one to one that didn't meet regularly and then in the next year to none.

All you are saying here is what you said before. Those councillors and leading TUists were almost entirely your own members and hardly any one else, so dont try to pretend otherwise. Obviously you choose to omit the one actual TU leader who remained in the SA, not really a very significant figure tho is he, leder of the PCS?

As for activity, up here it was far more active than it was when the SP had been members. It would have been hard to beotherwise in many ways, as usually the SP acted as SP not SA. YOU might have thought when you were selling The Socialist on a saturday you were building the Socialist Alliance and being an active member, but to anyone else on the planet, you were building the SP.

The Socialist Party's proposed organisational structure, by the way, would have given power to significant minorities to block rash and counterproductive SA decisions. And believe me, those facilities would have been used in situations like the CATP one.

No it wouldn't. It would still have allowed local orgs to make such decisions, indeed it would have strengthened there ability to do so.

Our crystal ball worked - did i forget to mention that we did tell you so - we did warn you?

Shame it didnt also tel lyou about the failure of the CNWP, I hope its done better with No2EU

 

[belboid]

Personally I will settle for a left wing version of the BNP

I thought durutti was meant to be the Strasserite, not you.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Dennisr, your abuse is becoming increasingly irrational. Your refusal to distance yourself from the No2EU stuff & acknowledge that my analysis is basically correct worry me.

As it happens, I am the son of immigrants, my father came to Britain when he was 5 years old from India, my mother is of Irish descent. I have also supported local anti-deporation campaigns, your bizarre attempts to claim that I am an armchair activist or do nothing are wacky, I don't claim to be the most brilliant activist in the world, but I am fairly polticially active.

The No2EU manifesto has a section on workers rights that begins by implicitly suggesting that migrant workers are a huge issue in relation to workers rights and the situation of working class people today. Generally when I argue with people at work who come out with racist stuff about immigrants, I explain that this tiny minority of workers are not responsible for our society's problems, but rather the rich and bosses - No2EU is implicitly implying that a huge problem in our society is migrant workers. Why does the section on workers' rights begin by talking about foreign workers? It is not the experience of most working class people in Britain that the big problems they are facing are due to foreign workers being socially dumped here, though they may wrongly scapegoat them.

The social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain is being carried out under EU rules demanding the “free movement of capital, goods, services and labour” within the EU.

No2EU tries to suggest that migrant workers are not to blame, they are just victims of the bosses, but the fact that a section on workers rights begins by talking about foreign workers rather than domestic bosses is pretty deplorable. The line that we need to restrict immigrants because they are exploited is not a socialist one it is a nationalist labour argument, the socialist argument is 'open borders' and equal rights for ALL workers. Essentially the implicit message of this section is that foreign workers are being dumped in Britain and exploited and we should oppose the free movement of labour.

If ‘food-miles’ represent an unacceptably large carbon footprint, then ‘labour-miles’ and shunting human beings around Europe in the pursuit of profit is even more damaging.

Blaming immigrants for global warming is deplorable, is there actual evidence that significant numbers of people are being shunted around in pursuit of profit? Rather because of the capitalist system a large amount of people migrate in search of better opportunities & we should support them. This analysis can only implicitly lead to the idea that we need to restrict immigration and blame the victims.

Stop defending the indefensible, Dennisr