The Socialist Alliance?

[Rod Sleeves]

I've never heard that story before about the SLP - Ego Arthur Himself? - offering the SP "a major role". I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

It is, however, true and very strange that at one point in the SLP saga the old Tanky, Scargill, did grant a prominent role to an obscure Trot sect. (Perhaps someone will be along later to remind us what the sect was called.)

They were later cast aside - as indeed have many other factions been, including even the Tankies' Tankies of Comrade Brar's Stalin Society.

The principal trotsyist groups organised within the SLP were as far as I know; the Fourth International Supporter's Caucus, led by the Sikorskis (Pat and Carol? from the RMT?) and the International Bolshevik Tendency, who may have been secret affiliates, Simon Harvey in the Weekly Worker was always an interesting look into the amusing and delousional world of the SLP.

 

[articul8]

IBT being non-delusional?

 

[JHE]

The principal trotsyist groups organised within the SLP were as far as I know; the Fourth International Supporter's Caucus, led by the Sikorskis (Pat and Carol? from the RMT?) and the International Bolshevik Tendency, who may have been secret affiliates, Simon Harvey in the Weekly Worker was always an interesting look into the amusing and delousional world of the SLP.

Thanks. Yes, that's them: the FISC, a group so obscure that the only times I have come across mention of the group have been in articles about politicking in the SLP.

(The IBT may be tiny, but any half-awake Trot-watcher knows who the are. They sell you their stuff.)

 

[The39thStep]

Terrible terrible example of deluded left thinking....After 15 years in existence they are blaming it on a capacity problem....Laughably sad.

Where as you despite ex RA members being in a small minority think its something to do with their 'narrow view'. But then again the fact the your New Labour rabble find the IWCA a threat is in itself something that undermines your allegation of delusion. You can go back to attacking the Telegraph for being anti Labour now.

 

[The39thStep]

The principal trotsyist groups organised within the SLP were as far as I know; the Fourth International Supporter's Caucus, led by the Sikorskis (Pat and Carol? from the RMT?) and the International Bolshevik Tendency, who may have been secret affiliates, Simon Harvey in the Weekly Worker was always an interesting look into the amusing and delousional world of the SLP.

Let us not forget Workers Power in this

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Let us not forget Workers Power in this

I heard they were expelled by text message.

 

[tbaldwin]

Where as you despite ex RA members being in a small minority think its something to do with their 'narrow view'. But then again the fact the your New Labour rabble find the IWCA a threat is in itself something that undermines your allegation of delusion. You can go back to attacking the Telegraph for being anti Labour now.

God how desperate. The slur of new labour and then the insane suggestion that new labour supporters will see the IWCA as a THREAT!!!!!!!!!!
Deluded sums it up nicely. Or perhaps its a brain capacity problem?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

God how desperate. The slur of new labour and then the insane suggestion that new labour supporters will see the IWCA as a THREAT!!!!!!!!!!
Deluded sums it up nicely. Or perhaps its a brain capacity problem?

New Labour supporters in Oxford and Islington have certainly seen the IWCA as a threat and have acted accordingly: e.g. statements to the press, rumour mongering, targetting electoral resources. So I don't think the 39thstep is displaying insanity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Rod Sleeves]

In fact weren't the IWCA forced to take the Labour party in Oxford to court for libel?

 

[tbaldwin]

New Labour supporters in Oxford and Islington have certainly seen the IWCA as a threat and have acted accordingly: e.g. statements to the press, rumour mongering, targetting electoral resources. So I don't think the 39thstep is displaying insanity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Well Louis as a supporter of the IWCA i would expect you to try and defend the madness. But how many people connected to new labour do you think have even heard of the IWCA?
They may have some small relevance in Oxford but apart from that after 15 years they are more or less completely irrelevant...Probably started with about 40 members 15 years ago who were told the organisation could make good progress...........Never happened........ probably less than 40 now.....

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Well Louis as a supporter of the IWCA i would expect you to try and defend the madness. But how many people connected to new labour do you think have even heard of the IWCA?
They may have some small relevance in Oxford but apart from that after 15 years they are more or less completely irrelevant...Probably started with about 40 members 15 years ago who were told the organisation could make good progress...........Never happened........ probably less than 40 now.....

None of the above alters the fact that the 39th step was not being insane when they said that new Labour saw the IWCA as a threat; in the Oxford and Islington local government arenas this is just a statement of fact. You are in danger of coming across as exactly the sort of opinion heavy, fact lite, shouty politico you so often and rightly deride.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

Not to mention trying to wrrigle out of supporting labour after bigging them up every chance on here for the last 5 years - your sudden conversion makes you look more than a little opportunistic - another trait that you so often and rightly deride.

 

[tbaldwin]

None of the above alters the fact that the 39th step was not being insane when they said that new Labour saw the IWCA as a threat; in the Oxford and Islington local government arenas this is just a statement of fact. You are in danger of coming across as exactly the sort of opinion heavy, fact lite, shouty politico you so often and rightly deride.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Well Oxford he may have a small point but to then go on from that to suggest that the IWCA is some kind of threat to New Labour is farcical.
You know as well as i do Louis that the IWCA is just another failed attempt by people on the Left to have some kind of meaningful political impact. It has been another turgid failure and the people involved in leading it instead of learning from it want to blame everyone else.

 

[tbaldwin]

Not to mention trying to wrrigle out of supporting labour after bigging them up every chance on here for the last 5 years - your sudden conversion makes you look more than a little opportunistic - another trait that you so often and rightly deride.

butchers my position has not changed over those 5 years. I would like to see a party to the Left of Labour that is democratic and pragmatic.
I want to see a massive redistribution of power nationally and internationally. But its not exactly on the cards at the moment is it?
Sometimes i vote Green, Sometimes Labour. in the gla elections i voted Green but voted for the Liberal for mayor...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Well Oxford he may have a small point but to then go on from that to suggest that the IWCA is some kind of threat to New Labour is farcical.
You know as well as i do Louis that the IWCA is just another failed attempt by people on the Left to have some kind of meaningful political impact. It has been another turgid failure and the people involved in leading it instead of learning from it want to blame everyone else.

All that has been said is that in Oxford and Islington new Labour has seen the IWCA as a threat; the rest is in your imagination.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Nigel]

The past tense in both of your posts says it all, unfortunately!
Isn't IWCA having a conference soon to discuss problems?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The past tense in both of your posts says it all, unfortunately!
Isn't IWCA having a conference soon to discuss problems?

Why say unfortunately when you obviously don't mean it? As for my use of the past tense that's becuase my involvement with IWCA currently involves nothing more than contributing financially and making the very occasional post on boards like this; and before you ask that has all to do with my slackness rather than anything the IWCA has or hasn't done.

Louis MacNeice

 

[tbaldwin]

Why say unfortunately when you obviously don't mean it? As for my use of the past tense that's becuase my involvement with IWCA currently involves nothing more than contributing financially and making the very occasional post on boards like this; and before you ask that has all to do with my slackness rather than anything the IWCA has or hasn't done.

Louis MacNeice

Sounds like you know your involvement in the IWCA was a mistake but you just cant quite bring yourself to admit it.
After 15 years if an organisation has less members than it started with does that suggest to you.
1 That they had the right idea all along
or
2 They were just another bunch of dogmatic delusional lefties.

?

 

[Nigel]

Why say unfortunately when you obviously don't mean it? As for my use of the past tense that's becuase my involvement with IWCA currently involves nothing more than contributing financially and making the very occasional post on boards like this; and before you ask that has all to do with my slackness rather than anything the IWCA has or hasn't done.

Louis MacNeice

I don't know why you think that I am hostile to iwca, when Stuart Craft won his seat I actively supported him and when I lived in areas where IWCA stood voted for them and would do again, when standing locally.

Pointing out where I think they are wrong does not mean that I oppose IWCA.
But their demise(hopefully only short term) was not any suprise to me.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Sounds like you know your involvement in the IWCA was a mistake but you just cant quite bring yourself to admit it.
After 15 years if an organisation has less members than it started with does that suggest to you.
1 That they had the right idea all along
or
2 They were just another bunch of dogmatic delusional lefties.

?

Stopping a standing order isn't that difficult; I've made a positive choice not to. I think you need to unpack some of your expectations about what you hope for from the left, rather than seeing them in everybody else.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I don't know why you think that I am hostile to iwca, when Stuart Craft won his seat I actively supported him and when I lived in areas where IWCA stood voted for them and would do again, when standing locally.

Pointing out where I think they are wrong does not mean that I oppose IWCA.
But their demise(hopefully only short term) was not any suprise to me.

I think you are hostile to the IWCA based on the nonsense you have previously posted about them.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Nigel]

There's a difference between being critical and hostile.

But you are right that I don't think the IWCA are going to be any major dynamic.
After all I am a Socialist and the IWCA's opinion of socialism and the labour/trade union movement as a whole is that it is defunct, which in my opinion will be to the IWCA's loss.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

There's a difference between being critical and hostile.

But you are right that I don't think the IWCA are going to be any major dynamic.
After all I am a Socialist and the IWCA's opinion of socialism and the labour/trade union movement as a whole is that it is defunct, which in my opinion will be to the IWCA's loss.

But you're not hostile.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Nigel]

But you're not hostile.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

What is that a statement or question.
I've put my opinion you make of it what you will.

 

[The39thStep]

God how desperate. The slur of new labour and then the insane suggestion that new labour supporters will see the IWCA as a THREAT!!!!!!!!!!
Deluded sums it up nicely. Or perhaps its a brain capacity problem?

Very willing to battle it out on either brain capacity or delusion but ask your chums ,who are members in Oxford or Islington, of the most right wing anti working class party since the post war about the fact that the IWCA took seats and votes off them.The truth is is that new labour are vulnerable to locally based opposition who pose an alternative based on canvassing and working in those working class communities. The BNP will continue to take votes from Labour not because of any emerging consensus of the need for the far right but because they combine old labour left of centre economic policies with local issues and have challenged the orthodoxy of multiculturalism. the fact that they succeed on a divisive basis only show the poverty of the so called left in its engagement with local working class communities.They, the BNP are sadly more at home in the white working class than new labour or the cobweb left.

I would love to see a left party based on the principle of putting the working class first but tell me if we are to avoid either reruns of every left unity initiative or something based on a blueprint of 1917 what would that party look like and how might we get there?

 

[The39thStep]

I don't know why you think that I am hostile to iwca, when Stuart Craft won his seat I actively supported him and when I lived in areas where IWCA stood voted for them and would do again, when standing locally.

Pointing out where I think they are wrong does not mean that I oppose IWCA.
But their demise(hopefully only short term) was not any suprise to me.

What demise?. They lost two seats a year ago and have recentky started two new branches. Might be painstakingly slow,definately has capacity issues, might have had more electoral success three four years ago but I wouldn't say that constitutes a demise. If anything some of their ideas have more currency than ever before. Demise ? No but never ever a straight trajectory.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

One of the problems of the left is this belief that it is so simple; plan, try plan out, get feedback, implement plan, total social change. And if that exact sequence doesn't happen in two years, the plan must be flawed, or someone must have disrupted it, or someone wasn't working hard enough.

If only.

 

[butchersapron]

The 'get feedback' stage is usually missed out mind.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

The 'get feedback' stage is usually missed out mind.

Well yeah, except by the IWCA.

 

[belboid]

One of the problems of the left is this belief that it is so simple; plan, try plan out, get feedback, implement plan, total social change. And if that exact sequence doesn't happen in two years, the plan must be flawed, or someone must have disrupted it, or someone wasn't working hard enough.

If only.

but over fifteen years without significant advance (or even change), and its still fine to just plod on as if everything is hunky dory.

'there is no alternative'