Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Revealing of what?
The Slow Fix - IWCA on the rise of UKIP and decline of the left...
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Revealing of what?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
As they say, "you can lead a horse to water"...
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
oh dear, Joke Reilly runs away again. Clearly you are incapable of answering my point, probably because you know it is right, and that you always intended to give the impression of being pro-immigration controls, but didn't want to explicitly say so.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
C'mon, cough it up. It's only a brick.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
'Clearly'? 'Probably'? Make up your mind.
Here, as your obviously struggling, let me spell it out for you.
Mass immigration is a fact of life. And there is nothing anyone (as things stand) can do about even if they wanted to. Given those circumstances to offer political support for a measure specifically designed to drive down wages and conditions is deeply reactionary regardless of the amount of lefty tissue shredding that comes with it.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
It's clearly one thing, and it is probably another thing. Sorry if you have difficulty understanding such a complex point.
So you oppose political support for 'open borders'. Once again then, you are strongly implying your support for immigration controls (you either have them or you don't, sometimes there are binaries), but wont actually come out and say so. As mass immigration is a fact of life, as you say, then the important political response is surely to talk about how we can work with those migrants to ensure that attacks and wages and conditions don't happen. But there is no mention of that from you, just the way migration works on behalf of capital. The implication is clear.
So you support open borders. Yet you've admitted further up the thread, more or less, that it's meaningless. And you are right because it's never going to happen. Under any circumstances.
The rest of what you say is platitudinous. 'How we can work with those migrants blah blah...' Hey, you don't say. And it's all very well if those migrants want to work with you and don't think you're some excitable tosser.
Pragmatism will ensure that immigration controls will exist in some form under any and all feasible social and economic systems.
It's time to give up childish dreaming.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Does your strategy envisage any consideration of the interests of the working class already here? They might have an interest in ensuring that the attacks on their wages and conditions don't happen too. Or is the work limited to migrants?
One of the few examples i am aware of where there has been a serious attempt to fuse the interests of the class AS A WHOLE was in Sighthill Glasgow a few years ago iirc. The campaign around resources, housing in one of the poorest parts of the UK sought to unite all sections of the community to turn their fire in the council rather than each other. It was led by IWCA supporters.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
what? Come back when you are capable of making sense.
It's self-explanatory.
Further up the thread you've admitted that what happens regarding immigration is beyond our control.
That we 'work with migrants' blah blah..' goes without saying. It's also a platitude and rests on the often baseless assumption that migrants want to work with you.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Of course such work must include the settled WC as well as the migrant WC, it wont work otherwise. That's ABC, I'd have thought.
And you should get out more if thats the only campaign you can think of. I can think of dozens involving both groups. From union campaigns in workplaces to campaigns around housing in various communities.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well, what a worthless comment then. Of course to work with other people, you need them to work with you too. That's hardly an insight.
The point being that it isn't really happening. It's one of the ways they've got us over a fucking barrel.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
what isn't happening?
And I wonder why you aren't having a pop at JR for also saying that mass immigration is a fact of life that we cant do anything about?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Could you list some or provide links? Thanks.
Because he isn't wheeling out the platitudes like you are.
The mass 'working with migrants' that you speak of isn't really happening.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Worked a warehouse job recently have you?
i'm deliberatly missing your point for jokes btw. Theres a patio that wants weeding before I get my lift home. Existential sunday afternoon despair.
I don't think anybody's said it isn't happening. But it isn't happening on a large enough scale to make a difference politically, and won't happen.
Many migrants understandably just want to keep their heads down. This is what employers rely on. Hard working Poles etc.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
It's almost identical to another user's moniker, is it not?
A cynic might conclude that you already knew that. You didn't seem to express any surprise at that happening, like someone who made a genuine mistake would.
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