existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Yes. It's not any secret on here - I'm a Freemason of nearly 25 years' standing
ETA: and on one occasion, was on a committee that excluded a member for committing a criminal offence.
the sir jimmy savile obe thread
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ETA: and on one occasion, was on a committee that excluded a member for committing a criminal offence.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes. It's not any secret on here - I'm a Freemason of nearly 25 years' standing
Oh right; sorry I didn't know...but I'm relatively new.
So what level is your lodge?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
The facetious answer is "about 10m above sea level"Oh right; sorry I didn't know...but I'm relatively new.
So what level is your lodge?
. For a sensible answer, I'd recommend heading over to the UGLE website and doing a bit of background reading, or digging up one of the threads on here about Freemasonry - it's probably going a bit off topic for this one. Or feel free to PM me...ETA: threads that might be useful are:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/freemasons-in-the-uk-a-general-discussion.301895/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-do-you-make-of-freemasonry.189604/
There's quite a bit of uninformed speculation on those, but it shouldn't be too hard to filter out the sensible ones, and you'll probably spot which Urbanites are on the square in the process
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The facetious answer is "about 10m above sea level"
OK, I understand...you don't want to talk about it publicly.
I asked because it was my understanding that individual members were very much placed at certain levels in the fraternity and often knew little or nothing about other layers in the hierarchy of the organisation. Hence, I'm always suspicious when I hear masons speaking for the whole edifice and it's membership.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
No, not at all, just that the topic has been covered fairly extensively already on here, and if you have specific questions it might be easier to ask them directly. I have no problem with discussing Freemasonry openly (there are some things we give our word not to disclose, though, and I have no intention of breaking that promise).
That is a common misapprehension, and not strictly true - but you will find all that out from a little reading.
Here's a useful link from the UGLE site which might answer a few of your questions: http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-freemasonry/frequently-asked-questions
(and I've edited some links into my previous post, too)
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
OK, jolly good.
"...not strictly true.." leads me to think that I'm not entirely wrong, so you'll understand when I express scepticism that any one member of the secret fraternity can speak about the motives of the broader membership or institution.
I very much doubt that you have any more knowledge than me about Savile's links with masons within WYP.
"...not strictly true.." leads me to think that I'm not entirely wrong, so you'll understand when I express scepticism that any one member of the secret fraternity can speak about the motives of the broader membership or institution.
I very much doubt that you have any more knowledge than me about Savile's links with masons within WYP.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
For all I know, you do have more information on that subject. But I am sure you will forgive me for suggesting that, from what you are saying about Masonry in general, that you don't know much about the organisation itself or how it operates.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
you'll probably spot which Urbanites are on the square in the process
'on the square'? Strange euphemism. 'I'm on the square tonight, dear.' *pulls on sash*
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
What was the point? Of what?I thought that was the point?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Of a society with secrets.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
What is the "point of a society with secrets"?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I meant "what is the point you are trying to make"?Do tell; you're a member.
I'm playing this with a completely straight bat, but I can't help feeling that you are trying to make some point about the significance of Freemasonry in all this without laying your cards on the table and saying specifically what it is that you are trying to infer.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That the reasons for police masons to be excluded from taking part in the hillsborough criminal investigation also lead to questions being raised about other investigations in that same area - that sort of thing is what it looks like to me. Sounds reasonable enough.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Absolutely. Whatever anyone's private view of freemasonry together with a bit more transparency in recent years, it's still a secret society and there are corrupt individuals that will utilise that secrecy. It's hardly a stretch of possibilities - it's a known and accepted aspect of secret societies/networking.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
are you saying you're on the square?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Okay. I didn't know that police masons were excluded from taking part in the Hillsborough investigation, and I don't know why that is. As far as I know, it's the first time Hillsborough has cropped up in this thread.
As a Freemason who's been one for getting on for 25 years, I'd claim a reasonable amount of first-hand knowledge about the organisation and how it works from an insider's perspective, but that doesn't mean I am necessarily clued up about the activities of every member of the organisation or what they have got up to.
The point I am making about your ignorance of the organisation is that, given that ignorance, you appear (only appear, I'll admit) to be making assumptions about its aims, motives, ways of operating, etc. that seem to me to be rather at odds with what I know about how it functions.
I don't know whether you are stating, with anything to support the statement, that Freemasonry is somehow implicated in the Savile coverup as far as West Yorkshire Police are concerned, or whether it's just an inference you're drawing circumstantially.
I am not here to defend Freemasonry, or individual masons who may have been involved in something they shouldn't have - I don't have the specific knowledge of what has gone on to do that. What I can say, with some measure of authority, is that any idea that Freemasonry, as an organisation, would be complicit or involved in coverups of police malpractice, whether in connection with Hillsborough or Jimmy Savile, is, to my mind, far-fetched.
I would be very interested to learn otherwise, but nothing I've seen from anyone here has done more than imply that this could be the case.
We have wrong 'uns in Freemasonry. I can say that with some authority, because Freemasonry isn't MI6 - we don't do a deep vetting on people who join - and there are wrong 'uns to be found everywhere in society. But the idea that those wrong 'uns are in any position to be able to openly practice their nefariousness within the organisation and be allowed to get away with it is fanciful.
Unless you know different?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Only for about the hundredth time here, yes
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
From a Masonic perspective, it wouldn't have made any difference. From a Catholic perspective, membership of Freemasonry is an excommunicable offence.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
So how does the fact that many of their male colleagues are masons affect the careers of female police people? Or lawyers? Or, well, masons?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The only reference I can find is this "West Yorkshire Police Federation Sine Favore Lodge, No.9856" and they are strange sites (The ones I looked at). I can find no credible source that there was or is a west Yorkshire police lodge
I am sure that a number of WYP were masons but maybe the lodge has a different name, probably members of a number of lodges, that's the usual form with old bill in my experience .
A lot of (non-OB) Masons have dual or multiple memberships, and frankly a lot of lodges aren't particularly clearly-named!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If WYP are anything like other police forces, there will be dozens (at least) of police lodges - most with a relative handful of members, a few with fuck-tons.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
To be fair, benign reasons do exist alongside the self-serving reasons, just as logical reasons exist alongside the batshit ones for membership.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
IME, most of those who join for self-serving reasons (they clearly don't believe the stuff we tell them at interview about "joining for personal advantage") get fed up and drift off fairly quickly...I imagine that, if Jimmy Savile had joined, assuming he hadn't flounced off in disgust at not being afforded suitable levels of respect from Day One, he'd have quickly gone the same way when he realised he'd joined an organisation where he was part of a hierarchy you don't just ascend because you've decided you're entitled to.To be fair, benign reasons do exist alongside the self-serving reasons, just as logical reasons exist alongside the batshit ones for membership.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Hold on. If Saville wasn't a Mason (and GQS have confirmed that) why would Masonic coppers help him out?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
In fact, the UGLE website mentions that 3 (or 4?) Grand Masters were Catholics.
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