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the sir jimmy savile obe thread

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No. I don't think it's odd. You made numbers of posts telling me how and what to post about the programme I mentioned even after I'd offered to send it to anyone interested, via pm. You then continued to quiz me on it and validated your questions by saying that you and others were very interested in it and that I wasn't posting it in the thread because a) it didnt exist b) I was lying c) I didn't have it.... both you and existentialist kept that up for a few pages.

You may differ in your views on your own behaviour.....but from my perspective at the receiving end it of it, it felt very much like being hassled repeatedly and needlessly to post information on a thread. This persistence and haranguing was in my view a form of bullying.
Yes, you were being "hassled" repeatedly. Exactly as repeatedly as the number of occasions that you continued to insist that the statements we were asking for foundation for were true.

You were outraged when I suggested you were "coy" about the sources. 15 pages on, and you are still complaining about being hassled and bullied, and 15 pages on you have still provided nothing to support the initial claims you were making, and which all but a tiny handful of people on the thread challenged as wrong.

And I bet you still haven't reported that 15 pages of "bullying" and "harassment" to the mods, have you?
 
Jesus fucking Christ, I have just wasted so much time reading this drivel. I have no idea why I persevered tbh!

Can't you lot just have a group conversation to carry on the bitching and sniping? Every time someone tries to get the thread back on track, one of you drags it all up again!

None of you are looking particularly good at the moment tbh.
 
There is that. But there is also the situation I have described to you, which isn't incidental, although you're treating it as such. And social workers may well not understand the assessment process or the setting up of counselling or therapy, it always takes time, even in the best of circumstances.
It is my repeated experience that this is the case. My local social services firmly seems to believe that a social worker talking to a client is "counselling", for example.

And the resourcing problem is universal - I think it's fairly safe to say that the primary criterion in referral, particularly of children, is not level of need or risk of harm but availability of resources. As a counsellor, I am supposed to refer on clients who appear to be beyond my professional range to CAMHS. In practice, even assuming CAMHS take them (which is rare), I end up continuing to see them because the CAMHS intervention is a once-a-month thing.

And within my service they've just cut the number of hours we work by 50%, while insisting to anyone who asks that the service level is being maintained. In practice, what that means is that we can pretend to maintain the service level, while in practice eating deep into it for the inevitable meetings and consultations with managers, while being expected to manage the rising tide of paperwork in our breaks and own time (because there will be no other time in which to do it), and before we even begin to look at when, for example, the first client of the day makes a serious child protection disclosure, and we're left with no slack time in which to be able to deal with that without bumping the rest of the day's clients.

What's more, I have no reason to think that the experience in my service is typical - talking to other professionals, the same is true for them: anything seen as "fat" is cut back viciously, leaving a service that's running at 101% capacity when things are going nicely. Chuck a suicide or major abuse issue into the mix, and the whole thing basically (quietly) implodes.
 
Jesus fucking Christ, I have just wasted so much time reading this drivel. I have no idea why I persevered tbh!

Can't you lot just have a group conversation to carry on the bitching and sniping? Every time someone tries to get the thread back on track, one of you drags it all up again!

None of you are looking particularly good at the moment tbh.
You do, at least, have the luxury of not being on the receiving end of some of the crap.

ETA: not to mention that, having been away from the thread for a day, I probably have carpetbombed it a bit as I caught up. My bad.
 
I've had my dealings with bubbles and I think she's a tit but there has been shit behaviour all round actually.

This thread is wrecked.
 
I've had my dealings with bubbles and I think she's a tit but there has been shit behaviour all round actually.

This thread is wrecked.
Not quite. Yeah, there's a lot of shit flying around, but there is still some interesting stuff, and I suspect that any significant revelations around the Savile aspect of things would have it snapping back into line very fast: the stupid stuff would just get lost in the volume of legitimate postings.

And yes, when one person is being a tit, it rarely brings out the best in others. I've been quite rattled to find myself being accused of lying, bullying and harassment, not to mention having some pretty nasty insinuations made about my professional integrity (not even counting Frances' comments, for which he has apologised, graciously). Perhaps, in some higher plane, we could just ignore that stuff, or move on: I am afraid my feet are made of clay, though, and I am not yet at a state of trancendence where I can simply rise above that unpleasantness and ignore it. Nor am I the only person who's catching that kind of shit, so it's probably pretty inevitable that a fair chunk of the thread's activity is going to go in that direction.

The answer, IMO, isn't to blame everyone for being as bad as each other or not coming out of it particularly well: the answer is to address the behaviours that are destabilising the thread in the first place. Since the party in question seems perfectly determined to be a tit, and since I don't think it reasonable to expect people to simply endure that abuse without feeling the need to stand up for themselves, I guess we're pretty screwed. Because I don't think most people are simply going to stand by and allow someone to abuse them in the way that bubbles, in particular, has abused people on here, nor should they have to. "Just ignore it" is crap advice for playground bullying, and it's crap advice online, too.
 
Look, I didn't want to stir it up even more so apologies if that's what I've done it's just so frustrating to read.

I didn't say ignore it but this has been going on page after page and nothing has or will be resolved.

I also didn't say that everyone was as bad as each other but bubbles isn't the only one that's been out of order IMO.

No-one is going to get what they want out of this.
 
In light of recent revelations and an opening up of historical abuse cases, do you think more victims will be able to feel empowered to speak out, seek help, and feel that the justice system will be fair to them?

The criminal justice system and the ancillary services involved can't cope with the current levels of sex offending. What the historical cases are showing, at least to the victims, is that although they may feel empowered to speak out once they see another case being taken seriously, that "justice" long denied will be drawn out even longer.


I'd like to see longer sentences....much longer .

Fine. Why? Do you have particularly low sentences for nonces across the Irish Sea?
 
Nope. I am absolutely certain it is this thread. You have also - AGAIN - selectively quoted my post. What I said was this:



You made the comments about shouting and running here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-sir-jimmy-savile-obe-thread.300406/page-108#post-13255924

I have deliberately not made any reference to your comments about your own experience of abuse, for one main reason: going by the way in which you have fairly comprehensively twisted any response to what you post to cast you in the role of victim, and given that you seem quite determined to use your status as an abuse survivor as some kind of badge of legitimacy for your views, I don't intend touching it with a bargepole.

As your link above shows...
I referenced a small part of the DES school programmes for kids. The 3 steps...ssy no...get away. ..tell someone steps.....You felt this was flawed because it was too general and you persisted in assigning this to my perspective as my only perspective despite my numerous posts afterwards which expanded the theory and practice.
I've already apologised for quoting that 3 step advice in isolation and the fact that it was a generalisation to expect anyone who is abused to all react in the same way...... .....see page 122.
I guess you missed that :rolleyes:


I don't think most people are simply going to stand by and allow someone to abuse them ......... "Just ignore it" is crap advice for playground bullying, and it's crap advice online, too.


........
:facepalm:

Let's just leave it now eh?
I didn't abuse you.
But if you feel I did then I spologise.
 
innit?



ime it's easy for some people to brush abuse by minors off as 'experimentation' - i'd guess that might be because it's fairly grim to acknowlege that it actually happens.

It's not just the grimness, as to why the authorities tend to be hands-off at best, ignore it at worst, it's because there are few resources (by which I mean practices as well as money) to deal with it in the depth that is both necessary and deserved. That's not to say that individual local authorities don't do excellent work, though. I'm saying that central government doesn't aim enough funding (for treatment or for research) at the issue.
 
U know u get the Bulger case & like the Saville case, the media jumps on these to turn the abusers into monsters while ignoring how very widespread abuse is. It annoys & upsets me that the narrative never changes & no1 seems to address the underlying issues. I think many ppl have prob done things they r ashamed of & tackling abuse of power in urself/ourselves has to be done to move forward. Tho obv this is uncomfortable & if ppl don't want to do it, nothing changes

My big issue with the Bulger case was and is that Doli Incapax (the principle by which a child under a certain age is not held criminally-responsible for their actions) was abrogated, and a new, younger age of criminal responsibility set, in order to prosecute Venables and Thompson as young adults, allowing the media to do exactly the same as they did with Mary Bell.
As to narratives, no, it never changes, because the most prurient and sensational narrative is the narrative that sells the most papers. A narrative of self-analysis has absolutely no appeal to our media.
 
...I've been quite rattled to find myself being accused of lying, bullying and harassment, not to mention having some pretty nasty insinuations made about my professional integrity (not even counting Frances' comments, for which he has apologised, graciously). Perhaps, in some higher plane, we could just ignore that stuff, or move on: I am afraid my feet are made of clay, though, and I am not yet at a state of trancendence where I can simply rise above that unpleasantness and ignore it.

Have you reported those posts to the mods?

Justice and fair play demands that this egregious and outrageous behaviour be stamped out forthwith. Fifthwith, even.

:)
 
that's what happened at this school in rochdale
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cial-school-were-at-risk-of-aids-1600318.html

The boys got abused by staff, then went on to abuse each other. And then went on to rent-boy it in the town bogs. Vulnerable kids turned into perverts - It hardly bears thinking about.

"Turned into perverts". I'd disagree with that. The original abusers were the perverts. Their victims were merely displaying some of the more obvious and expected reactions to being nonced. Turned into something they loathed, yes - they were turned into offenders themselves - but they weren't abusing power in the same structural way as their own abusers in order to do so.
 
I agree, I don't think the killers were just normal kids who went too far. Neither do I think they were Devils. Background had a lot to do with it, I don't mean poverty at all, tho I know the stresses poverty puts on families can a reason for outbursts of violence, misery, depression etc. But then as I seem to be arguing abuse is the norm, maybe they were just an extreme end of a normal scale, horrible tho this is to think. What has made me think this is the huge no of ppl I know who have been abused. It seems like almost everyone has had abuse of some sort in their lives & i know as many males as females about whom this is true.

There are many militating factors that may predispose people to commit abuse - being abused and/or neglected as a child themselves being the most obvious and well-understood factor, but it's what activates those predispositions in individuals that are the puzzle, because while we have a handle on how people become predisposed, we have much less of a grasp on why some people act on their predispositions, and others don't, even given the same environmental factors.
 
The criminal justice system and the ancillary services involved can't cope with the current levels of sex offending. What the historical cases are showing, at least to the victims, is that although they may feel empowered to speak out once they see another case being taken seriously, that "justice" long denied will be drawn out even longer.




Fine. Why? Do you have particularly low sentences for nonces across the Irish Sea?
It's the endless - and understandable - cry: we want to show our outrage by making the sentences as draconian as possible.

But there's a drawback. Several, in fact.

First, as is probably becoming fairly obvious by now, most abuse is perpetrated by someone known to the victim - quite possibly someone the victim cares about, or part of the victim's (extended) family. Really draconian sentences increase the pressure on the victim - or those around the victim - not to disclose, as the perceived punishment may seem to them to be out of all proportion to the crime: there is a real risk that, as the severity of punishment goes up, so the likelihood of disclosure goes down.

Secondly, as the severity of the sentence goes up, so the differential between the sentence for child sexual offences and, say, murder narrows. There is a real risk that very heavy sentences actually create the potential for far more harm to be done to victims than otherwise.

Thirdly, as will be evident from the statements of so many victims in recent court cases, most people who have been sexually abused are not looking for revenge, or the harshest punishments to be inflicted on their abusers. What they tend to focus on is, firstly, being believed and taken seriously, and secondly, making sure that the abuser is not able to abuse others.

Taken together, those reasons - and I am sure there are others - seem to me to present a good argument for not just going for the tough knee-jerk response, but taking a little more care about things. I would far rather, for example, see sex offenders serve sentences that involved some assertive work on getting them to see the consequences of what they have done, and on helping them to find ways of controlling and managing their behaviours than simply warehousing them indefinitely.

There will be those whom you cannot release - the Sidney Cookes of this world, for example. It may be that Savile would have been a similarly incorrigible offender whose behaviour would not have been changed by any amount of rehabilitation work, and I am not suggesting that NOBODY convicted of sex offences against children should serve a long sentence.

It just seems to me a bit sad that the response, so often, to these things is simply to go for the gut desire to avenge ourselves on these people - it might feel good, but it doesn't do much good.
 
Poverty may have been an indirect factor in the 3 cases I've mentioned in various posts. In fact, it's very likely it was. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. There's a massive problem with saying that state benefits cause these kind of problems of course, and it's that cruel narrative that we shouldn't buy into.

Almost 40% of the population experience poverty (officially described at the time of the Bulger murder as existing on less than 60% of the average household income). Roughly half of those people (or 20% of the population) at that time would have been classed as being in severe poverty, and yet only a vanishingly small number of children in those circumstances turn to violent crime, let alone murder. We can't pick out any single factor and say "it was that, that is what made them do it", because the reality is that Bulger was a victim of two boys who were themselves victims of a combination of circumstances, environmental factors and developmental issues that went far beyond poverty and its effects.
 
This seems to b the post that has caused much consternation. I think there is some confusion over whether this is general advice in Bubbles area which is being criticised (altho some ppl said it was a good idea, & i only mentioned a few cases where it may not help, did not mean it was not a good thing if a child felt able to do it) & what Bubbles feels is an attack on how she reacted to personal abuse, which imo is not for anyone to criticise. I hope what u did worked for u. I keep seeing these arguments & I'm not sure that anyone was criticising Bubbles for how she responded to abuse (I hope not) or rather saying that that reaction is not possible in every situation. If u manage to scream, hit ur abuser, get away, good for u. But not everyone can do this. However this in no way invalidates ur reaction. I haven't been awake long, hope this isn't too muddled. Apologise if I have wrong end of stick but it seems like things r being taken personally which were meant generally. And notice I have not mucked up my reply/quote thing this time :) *proud*

Spot on..
I was quoting department of education guidelines but a few here decided to rip me a new one on the strength that they felt I was advising that everyone who was abused should react the same way....despite my subsequent posts.
 
A maiden tribute to modern babylon - the five pound virgin bought in london and sold overseas. because presumably there were no virgin teenage girls anywhere outside of England.

Or the prurient "white slave" myth was already so embedded that forming the story around that trope was easy to sell.

Stead's behavior through the whole 'investigation' was questionable.

Absolutely. He used his subject abominably, manipulated the discourse and arguably created blocks of his narrative from no data whatsoever.

Far from making His career, he had done that with the reports of the military atrocity some years earlier. he was on the way down and seeking to try and regain his glory and sales figures. his actions on the night he supposedly purchased the girl do show quite how much he was pushing beyond his normal behavior. the result was a public reaction that I'm not sure wasn't out of proportion to the problem and more about the continuation of the moralising agenda of those who had campaigned against the contagious diseases acts, than it was about actually protecting anyone.

I'm only 50 pages into a biography of him, so I bow to your knowledge.
 
It's the endless - and understandable - cry: we want to show our outrage by making the sentences as draconian as possible.

But there's a drawback. Several, in fact.

First, as is probably becoming fairly obvious by now, most abuse is perpetrated by someone known to the victim - quite possibly someone the victim cares about, or part of the victim's (extended) family. Really draconian sentences increase the pressure on the victim - or those around the victim - not to disclose, as the perceived punishment may seem to them to be out of all proportion to the crime: there is a real risk that, as the severity of punishment goes up, so the likelihood of disclosure goes down.

Secondly, as the severity of the sentence goes up, so the differential between the sentence for child sexual offences and, say, murder narrows. There is a real risk that very heavy sentences actually create the potential for far more harm to be done to victims than otherwise.

Thirdly, as will be evident from the statements of so many victims in recent court cases, most people who have been sexually abused are not looking for revenge, or the harshest punishments to be inflicted on their abusers. What they tend to focus on is, firstly, being believed and taken seriously, and secondly, making sure that the abuser is not able to abuse others.

Taken together, those reasons - and I am sure there are others - seem to me to present a good argument for not just going for the tough knee-jerk response, but taking a little more care about things. I would far rather, for example, see sex offenders serve sentences that involved some assertive work on getting them to see the consequences of what they have done, and on helping them to find ways of controlling and managing their behaviours than simply warehousing them indefinitely.

There will be those whom you cannot release - the Sidney Cookes of this world, for example. It may be that Savile would have been a similarly incorrigible offender whose behaviour would not have been changed by any amount of rehabilitation work, and I am not suggesting that NOBODY convicted of sex offences against children should serve a long sentence.

It just seems to me a bit sad that the response, so often, to these things is simply to go for the gut desire to avenge ourselves on these people - it might feel good, but it doesn't do much good.


I'm glad the priests who abused hundreds of kids over 30 years are going to be in jail and away from kids for the rest of their lives.
Nothing to do with draconian outrage though. ....just very glad they'll never touch another kid.
 
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