the sir jimmy savile obe thread

[treelover]

Not by a long chalk, sadly. Nor will it easily happen.

This is going to be a long battle, and one that will never be won: the day before Savile died, there will have been just as many people abusing others as there were back in the 1970s, etc. And the day the revelations about Savile came out, there will still have been just as many people abusing others. Perhaps these revelations may have stopped a few, as the realisation dawns that there is a way in which they can be caught (I bet most abusers never seriously thought that, simply by different unconnected victims testifying against them to corroborate their patterns of abuse, a conviction could result), but most will, I suspect, carry on.

The only way that abuse is going to be prevented is by continually sending the message to everyone that it's OK to disclose abuse, and people will listen, and that when someone tells us they're being abused, we have to take it seriously. We are still a long way from that - that culture of silence will always be waiting in the wings to rush back in and convince us that ignoring the problem and hoping it'll go away will be a good strategy.

Sexual abuse/assault says something about us that is deeply uncomfortable, and that is the primary reason for the "culture of silence" - everything else stems from there, in my view: we don't like to admit that someone whom we perhaps respect has some very nasty ways, so we are uncomfortable about telling others; they, in their turn, don't like to admit such things either, so they are reluctant to hear. Society, as a whole, doesn't like it either - look how easily we characterise and dehumanise these abusers as "monsters" - so it tends to shy away from confronting an uncomfortable truth.

And if that process is allowed to operate - or if we are not constantly vigilant to ensure that it doesn't - that culture of silence will be, silently, there again before we know it.

The first step is what we're already telling kids (and should be telling adults): "if someone touches you or does something to you that you don't like, TELL SOMEONE".

The next step, which I think we are still struggling with, is to LISTEN when people do tell us stuff. We still have a long way to go, there - let's not start patting ourselves on the back prematurely.

The grooming scandals come to mind, for many reasons, some unpalatable to the liberal left, these young women were disbelieved, etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

The grooming scandals come to mind, for many reasons, some unpalatable to the liberal left, these young women were disbelieved, etc.

and we've seen how sections of the trot left behave

 

[Favelado]

Think that's disturbing? Check this show out. How the very fuck was a show
like this ever allowed to go on?

Sat here with my mouth wide open at that. What was that show called?

e2a - "Just like Mom".

Horrid.

 

[existentialist]

The grooming scandals come to mind, for many reasons, some unpalatable to the liberal left, these young women were disbelieved, etc.

I think the debate is cheapened when it is used to make points about political ideology. The truth is that no one political grouping has a monopoly on either sexual abuse, or the moral high ground in relation to it.

But yes - for all that people are talking about some kind of sea change in attitudes, there are plenty of recent examples where th signs were there yet nobody chose to act on them.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

No, actually, I think you've made a good additional point. Anyone who does any child protection training will know that disabled children are automatically regarded as "children in need" and recognised as being significantly more vulnerable to abuse. So a group of children who are MORE at risk of being abused are being given advice which is LESS applicable to their specific needs.

And I suspect whoever cooks up this self-evident garbage by way of "advice" toddles off on their way, happy that the job is done and that nobody needs to worry any more. Certainly, I would never have believed how much arrant nonsense is out there and presented as TrueFact™ as I do now, having done a fair bit of child protection training - it'd be quite shocking, if it wasn't so boringly commonplace.

Well...I realise you are an expert by your own admission so I will give you that. I actually work very closely with teenagers with disabilities and the training they get is very intensive and covers all asoects of abuse....from familial to stranger. They are brought through a programme provided by educational psychologists that gives them the skills to use the three steps. It makes it very accessible to them.

But then again I'm in Ireland and there's been a massive input into this training for teachers, care personnel, and young childten and teenagers...particularly those with special needs.

 

[existentialist]

Well...I realise you are an expert by your own admission so I will give you that.

There's no need to take that line. What I have been responding to your posts with has been less about expertise and more about generally available information that runs very much counter to your rather broad-brush generalities.

I actually work very closely with teenagers with disabilities and the training they get is very intensive and covers all asoects of abuse....from familial to stranger. They are brought through a programme provided by educational psychologists that gives them the skills to use the three steps. It makes it very accessible to them.

Well, with all respect due, I hope that the training they are getting is a considerable step up from the stuff you're peddling here, I really do.

But then again I'm in Ireland and there's been a massive input into this training for teachers, care personnel, and young childten and teenagers...particularly those with special needs.

Sure. I have seen a similarly massive input into training on child protection here in Wales. Quite a lot of it has been total and utter guff - "massive input" is, sadly, not an indicator of quality, only quantity.

 

[Rural]

Well...I realise you are an expert by your owndisabilitiet. I actually work very closely with teenagers with disabilities and the training they get is very intensive and covers all asoects of abuse....from familial to stranger. They are brought through a programme provided by educational psychologists that gives them the skills to use the three steps. It makes it very accessible to them.

But then again I'm in Ireland and there's been a massive input into this training for teachers, care personnel, and young childten and teenagers...particularly those with special needs.

Scandals like Winterbourne View show the awful state of residential care for young ppl with learning disabilities & physical disabilities in england. If the model adopted in ireland is working id hope they would adopt a similar thing in eng. The length of time the abuse continued, the amount of ppl who knew & did nothing, the way the survivors were either not believed or were unable to tell anyone what was happening...not much has changed in the last 50+ years by the look of it.

 

[Rural]

There's no need to take that line. What I have been responding to your posts with has been less about expertise and more about generally available information that runs very much counter to your rather broad-brush generalities.

Well, with all respect due, I hope that the training they are getting is a considerable step up from the stuff you're peddling here, I really do.

Sure. I have seen a similarly massive input into training on child protection here in Wales. Quite a lot of it has been total and utter guff - "massive input" is, sadly, not an indicator of quality, only quantity.

Like all pub sector services, it's all about cost. With the cuts, schemes such as improving care for chn in res care will always fall short. All councillors seem eager to let u know is that they're keeping ur council tax down, so obv they think most voters r more enthusiastic about that rather than keeping vulnerable chn safe in their local area.
me

 

[DotCommunist]

Sat here with my mouth wide open at that. What was that show called?

e2a - "Just like Mom".

Horrid.

its come up long time ago on here and around the net, before savillrey and paedogeddon in general.

at the time there was some context pointed out, but its hard to see what context it might have been. Possibly snopes might know.

 

[Rural]

I read that the show was fronted by a husband & wife team :/

But this is common irl. How many kids r forced to kiss relatives when they obv dont want to. Parents/everyone else stands around laughing at what is perceived to be the child's "coyness". The child is then embarrassed/shamed into kissing. No weight is given to the child's feelings/instinct.

 

[existentialist]

I read that the show was fronted by a husband & wife team :/

But this is common irl. How many kids r forced to kiss relatives when they obv dont want to. Parents/everyone else stands around laughing at what is perceived to be the child's "coyness". The child is then embarrassed/shamed into kissing. No weight is given to the child's feelings/instinct.

And then we wonder why they don't thump someone trying to abuse them, or "loudly say 'NO'"...

 

[Red Cat]

Well...I realise you are an expert by your own admission so I will give you that. I actually work very closely with teenagers with disabilities and the training they get is very intensive and covers all asoects of abuse....from familial to stranger. They are brought through a programme provided by educational psychologists that gives them the skills to use the three steps. It makes it very accessible to them.

But then again I'm in Ireland and there's been a massive input into this training for teachers, care personnel, and young childten and teenagers...particularly those with special needs.

I think it's a grave mistake to view a child's capacity to say no to an abusing adult as a skill.

 

[Kalfindin]

The grooming scandals come to mind, for many reasons, some unpalatable to the liberal left, these young women were disbelieved, etc.

Its not that nobody believed them, its that Savile knew serious people, whom he could have brought into it, if ever brought to justice. When interviewed he just kept taking about the Royal family apparently. This is the guy who was given the keys to Broadmoor, the run of dozens of children's homes etc, for 40 years a pimp of children, his connections went from the Royal paedophile Lord Mountbatten to dozens of establishment figures.

Savile was a very clever man, the file was sent to the DPP who refused to take it further. Savile protected himself by having powerful allies.

Whos idea was it to give him the keys of Broadmoor, ffs ?

 

[elbows]

I think the debate is cheapened when it is used to make points about political ideology. The truth is that no one political grouping has a monopoly on either sexual abuse, or the moral high ground in relation to it.

But yes - for all that people are talking about some kind of sea change in attitudes, there are plenty of recent examples where th signs were there yet nobody chose to act on them.

I'll have a quick stab at which attitudes have changed and which haven't.

Towards touching people at work etc has certainly changed.
Towards women have changed, as have the things that women have been forced to take on the chin.
Towards large institutions have changed, with some types of institution pretty much eradicated or at least massively downsized.
Towards airing suspicions about prominent members of society have changed, though the law is no better in many ways (e.g. libel) and in some ways worse.
Towards publicly lusting over older schoolgirls, making jokes about it in cheap comedies etc have shifted, but not been entirely eliminated.
Towards sex crimes in general, there is more outrage expressed these days, and the stereotypical classic idea of uptight brits being unable to talk about sex is increasingly obsolete.

Towards giving those we actually know the benefit of the doubt have probably not changed much.
Towards risking your own career, finances, health, etc in order to blow the whistle or stand up against wrongdoing in the workplace and elsewhere, as a matter of course, has not changed anywhere near enough.
Other power shit has not changed that much, and in some ways is going backwards in recent decades.

Towards the youth in society, how much respect, space and power we give them, how much they are demonised and marginalised, and the detail of the phases they go through with their peers a they reach various milestones in life is a mixed bag. The internet makes a bloody big difference in numerous different ways, both good and bad.

How much help, respect and belief we give to victims who come forward has certainly evolved. At a minimum there is at least the need to pay a lot of lip service to these concepts now, and sometimes the actual reality will live up to the stated aims, but its clear it still falls down all over the place for numerous reasons.

There are others but that will do for now.

 

[ibilly99]

Prophetic Not the Nine O'Clock sketch on Harris.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I think it's a grave mistake to view a child's capacity to say no to an abusing adult as a skill.

I didn't say that saying no was a skill. I said the programme implemented over here gave
the teenagers I was speaking of skills to USE the steps...(as in personal, social and communication skills)

The programme run by psychologists, teachers and carers is aimed at prevention but also at disclosure and counselling. It coordinates with health service, child care and social workers. There are direct referrals to child care personnel and the gardai.

It's a huge step in the right direction in actively trying to prevent and or interrupt/stop abuse ... it covers sexual, emotional, physical abuse and neglect.

 

[Red Cat]

I didn't say that saying no was a skill. I said the programme implemented over here gave
the teenagers I was speaking of skills to USE the steps...(as in personal, social and communication skills)

The programme run by psychologists, teachers and carers is aimed at prevention but also at disclosure and counselling. It coordinates with health service, child care and social workers. There are direct referrals to child care personnel and the gardai.

It's a huge step in the right direction in actively trying to prevent and or interrupt/stop abuse ... it covers sexual, emotional, physical abuse and neglect.

You have a way of writing that reads like you've taken your information from the back of a cereal packet.

 

[Pickman's model]

You have a way of writing that reads like you've taken your information from the back of a cereal packet.

or the back of the sun

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

You have a way of writing that reads like you've taken your information from the back of a cereal packet.

Wow....
Considering you misquoted and misunderstood my post....I think you're none to dole out criticism of writing style.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

or the back of the sun

Dont read it..... do you?

 

[Orang Utan]

No, the actual sun

 

[Pickman's model]

Wow....
Considering you misquoted and misunderstood my post....I think you're none to dole out criticism of writing style.

 

[existentialist]

Wow....
Considering you misquoted and misunderstood my post....I think you're none to dole out criticism of writing style.

You're having a lot of trouble with being misunderstood.

If it is that you are being misunderstood - by me, and, it seems, by others - then perhaps it's not the fault of those apparently misunderstanding you...?

This is a subtle and nuanced subject area. You're making some bold and categorical pronouncements, which seem to be being challenged by quite a few people. Perhaps you might think why that might be.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're having a lot of trouble with being misunderstood.

If it is that you are being misunderstood - by me, and, it seems, by others - then perhaps it's not the fault of those apparently misunderstanding you...?

This is a subtle and nuanced subject area. You're making some bold and categorical pronouncements, which seem to be being challenged by quite a few people. Perhaps you might think why that might be.

trans: you're talking shit

 

[Red Cat]

Wow....
Considering you misquoted and misunderstood my post....I think you're none to dole out criticism of writing style.

I did no such thing. And I don't think it's just you, I think there's a whole industry of skills selling that needs debunking, it's exploitative and reduces the complexities of human relationships to a learned behaviour or some other sellable unit.

However, that's not to say that I think the programme you speak of has no value.

 

[existentialist]

trans: you're talking shit

I was much more polite than that!

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

You're having a lot of trouble with being misunderstood.

If it is that you are being misunderstood - by me, and, it seems, by others - then perhaps it's not the fault of those apparently misunderstanding you...?

This is a subtle and nuanced subject area. You're making some bold and categorical pronouncements, which seem to be being challenged by quite a few people. Perhaps you might think why that might be.

I described a programme for teenagers with learning difficulties that has been designed and implemented by psychologists.

 

[existentialist]

I did no such thing. And I don't think it's just you, I think there's a whole industry of skills selling that needs debunking, it's exploitative and reduces the complexities of human relationships to a learned behaviour or some other sellable unit.

However, that's not to say that I think the programme you speak of has no value.

The problem with a lot of these programmes is that they're basically someone selling an agenda to a frequently uncritical and rather desperate marketplace. All too often, the primary criterion is price (well, actually, it's "is it free?") and quality or coherence come a long way down the list. I know, because I've been asked to deliver similar kinds of programme, and nobody's interested whether what you're touting is validated or in any way backed up by research or theory. And I have sat in on some truly appalling presentations, usually delivered by someone whose job isn't to deliver training (and boy, does it show), passing on some half-understood guff they picked up, Chinese whispers-style, presumably from some equally incompetent type who also read it off a 9 point Powerpoint slide.

 

[existentialist]

I described a programme for teenagers with learning difficulties that has been designed and implemented by psychologists.

The point isn't what you described - it's the fact that you seem to be having trouble with people misunderstanding you. I am inviting you to consider what it might be about the way you're putting things across that is making that so easy to do...

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

It's a programme that is very much based around relationship, sexuality, respect, legal advice, counselling....it's not a one size fits all at all.