The rise of fascism in the US

[two sheds]

A particular and very broad interpretation of the US Constitution. And in the real world no one apart from out of touch republican lunatics oppose controlling gun ownership to reduce fatal shootings in schools and elsewhere. They're supposely so fucking exercised about safety of children.

 

[StakerOne]

A particular and very broad interpretation of the US Constitution. And in the real world no one apart from out of touch republican lunatics oppose controlling gun ownership to reduce fatal shootings in schools and elsewhere. They're supposely so fucking exercised about safety of children.

If you don't like broad interpretations, explain what you mean by "controlling gun ownership".

Guns are controlled. Controlling gun ownership more would not reduce fatal shootings anymore than controlling private vehicle ownership more would reduce road fatalities.

 

[Raheem]

If you don't like broad interpretations, explain what you mean by "controlling gun ownership".

Guns are controlled. Controlling gun ownership more would not reduce fatal shootings anymore than controlling private vehicle ownership more would reduce road fatalities.

Yes, I can't see why there would be any link between numbers of vehicles and numbers of fatal traffic accidents. If you restricted it so, say, ten vehicles, those ten drivers would just work really hard to keep the numbers steady.

 

[NoXion]

Not possible. US Constitution.

The US Constitution makes allowances for regulation, it's right there in the term "well-regulated". Just because the NRA gun-humpers have chosen to ignore it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Better trained gun owners would just make them more effective killers if they flip.

I'm not talking about training to shoot at things. I'm talking about stuff like safety training and ensuring that gun owners have the knowledge to safely store and handle their arms and ammunition. Carelessly leaving that kind of shit lying around should be a criminal offence, much like how operating a motor vehicle with malfunctioning brakes is. Also, the less casually accessible firearms are, the less likely it is that they will be used on impulse.

Far better and more constructive to look at all the things in society that are sending people mentally ill, rather than simply blaming guns.

Why not both? Mental health and firearms safety are equally important.

Ita cukture as well.

Too many times Ive seen them brand someone who's clearly mentally ill as a "Karen".

What's that got to do with firearms? If there is indeed a mental health crisis happening within the US, then allowing the current free-for-all with regards to firearms sales and handling to continue is only going to allow further tragedies to happen.

 

[NoXion]

Guns are controlled. Controlling gun ownership more would not reduce fatal shootings anymore than controlling private vehicle ownership more would reduce road fatalities.

Blatantly false. Tighter control of gun sales on the legal market would have knock-on effects for sales within the grey and black markets.

 

[StakerOne]

Blatantly false. Tighter control of gun sales on the legal market would have knock-on effects for sales within the grey and black markets.

It's simplistic and wrong to conclude that the number of guns in circluation has a direct corralation with the number of gun related deaths.

There's plenty of other countries out there that have high gun ownership, but much lower gun related fatalities.

 

[StakerOne]

What's that got to do with firearms? If there is indeed a mental health crisis happening within the US, then allowing the current free-for-all with regards to firearms sales and handling to continue is only going to allow further tragedies to happen.

One big reason why US citizens arm themselves, is their mistrust of government. They understand the dynamics of power.

If it were as simple as denying gun ownership to the mentally ill, then people would assume they would be declared "mentally ill" as soon as the state sees them as a "problem".

 

[StakerOne]

I'm not talking about training to shoot at things. I'm talking about stuff like safety training and ensuring that gun owners have the knowledge to safely store and handle their arms and ammunition. Carelessly leaving that kind of shit lying around should be a criminal offence, much like how operating a motor vehicle with malfunctioning brakes is. Also, the less casually accessible firearms are, the less likely it is that they will be used on impulse.

They are given safety training - what level of safety training they are given depends on the state issuing the gun carry permit.

It's impossible to enforce laws concerning home gun safety unless it becomes an issue.

Because of the sheer number of people who own guns, they can't go from house to house doing spot checks.

If they don't store their guns safely and it becomes an issue because a child got hold of a gun and there was an accident, the gun-owner would be guilty of a crime.

 

[two sheds]

Because of the sheer number of people who own guns, they can't go from house to house doing spot checks.

You've put your finger on the flaw in your own argument there .

 

[StakerOne]

You've put your finger on the flaw in your own argument there .

Nope. Many people in the United States own guns. They are entitled to do so under their constitution.

ONE reason why they have that in their constitution, was because the Founding Fathers in their wisdom realised that one day, someone who's drunk and corrupt on centralised power, may decide to go in the direction of fascism.

Guns in the hands of millions of citizens, is a good insurance policy against fascism, oh and communism ... same thing, innit.

 

[two sheds]

Nope. Many people in the United States own guns. They are entitled to do so under their constitution.

ONE reason why they have that in their constitution, was because the Founding Fathers in their wisdom realised that one day, someone who's drunk and corrupt on centralised power, may decide to go in the direction of fascism.

How's that going in Florida then? Loads of guns in Florida it should be safe from fascism.

 

[NoXion]

It's simplistic and wrong to conclude that the number of guns in circluation has a direct corralation with the number of gun related deaths.

There's plenty of other countries out there that have high gun ownership, but much lower gun related fatalities.

How are there going to be more gun deaths if there are fewer guns knocking about? Those other countries you speak of do things differently to the US, and the US is the one where mass shootings are a nearly daily occurrence. So the US would do well to take their cues from them. But they won't, because the US gun lobby is all about unrestricted access to firearms even if one is a proven family abuser.

One big reason why US citizens arm themselves, is their mistrust of government. They understand the dynamics of power.

If it were as simple as denying gun ownership to the mentally ill, then people would assume they would be declared "mentally ill" as soon as the state sees them as a "problem".

Given how there are many other countries that don't have a firearms free-for-all and yet aren't crushed under tyranny, the US gun nuts' understanding of dynamics of power leaves much to be desired. Easy access to guns certainly hasn't given US citizens better healthcare options, or more power in the workplace, or civic planning centred around people rather than vehicles.

It's impossible to enforce laws concerning home gun safety unless it becomes an issue.

If you want to possess a firearm, you should be able to prove that you can handle and store it safely. Just like how car drivers are required to demonstrate that they can safely handle a motor vehicle. It's not impossible just because you declare it to be so.

Because of the sheer number of people who own guns, they can't go from house to house doing spot checks.

Sure they can. Require all owners to register their firearms. Make unregistered ownership illegal. Anyone caught with an unregistered firearm is in deep shit, so they have a strong incentive to get registered.

 

[StakerOne]

How's that going in Florida then? Loads of guns in Florida it should be safe from fascism.

Florida is fine.

 

[two sheds]

Fascism and 'don't say gay' and book banning is fine?

That says where you place yourself on the fascism scale.

 

[NoXion]

Authoritarianism is fine when its directed towards groups Staker boy doesn't give a shit about.

 

[teqniq]

It also seems to be absolutely fine for him to hold forth about gun control when the thread is actually about the rise of fascism in the US.

 

[bluescreen]

Florida is fine.

 

[two sheds]

It also seems to be absolutely fine for him to hold forth about gun control when the thread is actually about the rise of fascism in the US.

Mind you I do think the two things are linked - just not in the way he wants us to believe.

 

[two sheds]

Florida is fine.

Explain to us why Florida is fine.

 

[teqniq]

Mind you I do think the two things are linked - just not in the way he wants us to believe.

I agree but I was using it as yet another example of him being totally ok with expounding on whatever is his hobby-horse of the moment, but if anyone else does it....

 

[Serge Forward]

No idea while you're still conversing with the cunt. I have Staker blocked so can't normally see his posts but to find out the score I unblocked his last post... and it really should be his last post. The fash cunt needs binning off.

 

[teqniq]

The implication of it is that he is a DeSantis fanboy.

 

[Serge Forward]

Trump and the Republican party exemplify these five elements of fascism | US politics | The Guardian
Which according to Robert Reich, exemplify fascism.

 

[agricola]

One big reason why US citizens arm themselves, is their mistrust of government. They understand the dynamics of power.

If it were as simple as denying gun ownership to the mentally ill, then people would assume they would be declared "mentally ill" as soon as the state sees them as a "problem".

... and this, in essence, is the reason why the US has such a problem with mass shootings.

Arming a population for self-defence against criminals, or as part of a local militia (which is what the 2A is actually about) would not lead to an epidemic of spree killings - the first is about protecting your family against a threat, and the second is about protecting your community in conjunction with other members of that community. We see both of those things across many countries in the world and they do not experience what the US experiences at anything like the same level (occasional tragedies do happen though).

The problem with arming yourself because you "mistrust the government" is that it relies on an assumption that the government should be doing something for you (often this is just "have a happy life" / "have a successful life" / keep America white) and following on from that any perceived misdeed from "the government" could justify an armed response. The people who carry out these attacks often think they are justified, that they are the victim at the centre of everything.

 

[StakerOne]

Fascism and 'don't say gay' and book banning is fine?

That says where you place yourself on the fascism scale.

We're talking about schools.

"Liberals" ban "problematic" books in schools all the time.

Florida is simply putting the power in the hands of parents.

Gay sexual oritentation can be discussed in the classroom, but the parents get to decide when it's age appropriate to do so and if the teachers go up against the parents, then they will be breaking the law.

I admit it could have been better thought out, but the left wasn't complaining about the rights of parents when liberal teachers were trying to peddle highly sexual content to young children.

IMHO the fairest and most sensible policy would be that parents of a school decide which year sex education starts and it's all or nothing with sex education covering ALL issues including gender and sexual orientation.

I'm not a parent, but if I were, I would want the school to teach my kids (that I haven't had yet!) sex education from about the age of 11.

 

[NoXion]

We're talking about schools.

"Liberals" ban "problematic" books in schools all the time.

No they don't. It's the Republicans fascists who are passing these laws, not "liberals".

Florida is simply putting the power in the hands of parents.

More bullshit. It's a minority of parents pushing this book-banning nonsense: Just a few hateful parents are responsible for most of the book challenges in America.

As few as 11 people are responsible for a significant chunk of bannings, which targeted books focused on LGBTQ content.

liberal teachers were trying to peddle highly sexual content to young children.

More lies. The books being objected to were educational, not pornographic.

 

[Pickman's model]

We're talking about schools.

"Liberals" ban "problematic" books in schools all the time.

Florida is simply putting the power in the hands of parents.

Gay sexual oritentation can be discussed in the classroom, but the parents get to decide when it's age appropriate to do so and if the teachers go up against the parents, then they will be breaking the law.

I admit it could have been better thought out, but the left wasn't complaining about the rights of parents when liberal teachers were trying to peddle highly sexual content to young children.

IMHO the fairest and most sensible policy would be that parents of a school decide which year sex education starts and it's all or nothing with sex education covering ALL issues including gender and sexual orientation.

I'm not a parent, but if I were, I would want the school to teach my kids (that I haven't had yet!) sex education from about the age of 11.

It's probably for the best if you keep your humble opinion to yourself until you can come up with one that isn't half-baked and doesn't make you look like a muppet with no understanding the issues.

 

[StakerOne]

It's probably for the best if you keep your humble opinion to yourself until you can come up with one that isn't half-baked and doesn't make you look like a muppet with no understanding the issues.

Enough about what the teachers think, what do you think?

 

[planetgeli]

I'm not a parent,

Silver linings and all that.

 

[StakerOne]

No they don't. It's the Republicans fascists who are passing these laws, not "liberals".

Liberals simply infiltrate the library and remove the books they find "problematic".

The laws would never have been passed if teachers reasoned with parents. They won't. That's the problem.

I could sit here until I'm blue in the face, liberals / the left NEVER draw a line in the sand and say how far is too far.

Most on the right are honest enough to tell you how far is too far for the right. For example, I don't fully agree with the passed laws.

Sexual education should be all or nothing in order to effect equality, I at least conceed that it should NOT be neccesary to target age limits for sexual orientation and gender studies, it should be all or nothing.

I'm prepared to say when the right goes too far, because I'm reasonable.

But the left? It's very rare, if ever, that someone on the left says how far is too far for the left to go. Funnily enough, when they do say how far is too far, the are branded as being right wing by the nutters on the far left!