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The Rational Proof of God's Existence

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phildwyer said:
Capital doesn't exist in any material form: its existence is supernatural, of the same nature as Satan's existence. It/he exists only in our minds. They can be abolished in the same sense that an illusion can be dispelled.
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So when we abolish capital, God will cease to exist?
 
phildwyer said:
Nino, you have mistakenly tucked your agenda into your underpants. The entire room is staring at your agenda. Please return to the bathroom and put your agenda back where it belongs. Your agenda is just what I wanted to look at while having my lunch--I *don't* think!
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...said the naked emperor.
 
stdPikachu said:
Hands up anyone who thinks phildwyer is the Ed Wood of bulletin boards.
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Ed Wood? Yep, this thread does rather remind me of the clusterfuck known as "Plan 9 from Outer Space". :)
 
ZWord said:
the thing to do is to work out what - -spirit- means, or what it's meant to mean, even if there is no entity that is actuallly spirit, and then see whether what phil calls financial value has the necessary characteristics. As far as I can see, if you do the first, and then financial value turns out to have the necessary characteristics, then people are perfectly justified in claiming it's spirit
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You seem to think that if fv meets some of the criterea for being a spirit then we are justified in calling it a spirit, and hence that spirit is real. But the entire concept of spirit must be shown to be real, not just bits of it, or anything could prove anything.A statement that says, X is A and Y is B, is not proved by X being A; or any statement could prove any other, as we could buckle together any two statements of which one is unproved, hence proving it, which is essentially what you have done to make 'spirit'.

That fv meets some of the critera for spirit would only argue for the existence of a "spirit" that had the properties of fv, we could not argue for the existence of a spirit with any additional properties e.g. irreducible, devil-like, unless there was an argument for spirit being these things that showed that these properties were rationally coinstantiated. This would have to be based on more than what the concept means, which is simply convention.

So unless you have an argument for spirit being malign and irreducible that isn't just based on "thats what spirit means" you can't say that becasue fv is malign it is irreducible.

To me this "proof" would seem to boil down to "alot of people a long time ago believed that X was like this" (the devil is malign), though they had no rational reason to believe that their concept of the devil was real (that some things were malign, does not prove it), or that being the devil and being malign co-occur.

Money is evil. The devil is evil (can't argue with that, part nof our concpet of the devil). Therefore money is the devil. Therefore the devil exists. Therefore God exists.

Or. My lunch is nice. The flying spagetti monster is nice (can't argue with that, part of our concept of the flying spagetti monster). Therefore my lunch is the flying spagetti monster. Therefore the flying spagetti monster exists.

This is the exact same argument.

You have to show that the flying spagetti mnonster is more than a coherent concpoet, you have to show that there is reasonable reason to believe that things which are made if spagetti can fly (that the properties we ascibe to it go together, again not just appealing to the meaning of the concept), or that the concept is real in its entirity (not just that the property of being nice is a real property, as you have done with 'spirit').

One would have to show either being malign and being irreducible rationally co-occur, or that 'spirit' is a real concept in its entirity to rationally beleive that fv is spirit.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Ed Wood? Yep, this thread does rather remind me of the clusterfuck known as "Plan 9 from Outer Space". :)
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What *is* a "clusterfuck," oh Violent one? You seem like the sort of chap who would know...
 
This isn't just my imagination is it.
For this to be valid: fv is malign. spirit is malign, therefore fv is spirit (and as fv exists, spirit exists); one needs a prior argument for spirit being real. Or any additional properties ascribed to fv by the comparision is meaningless, and you have not proved the existsnce of spirit in any way other than the realness of the property of malignancy, nor have you proved the realness of any further properties of fv.
It really seems the same structure as the flying spagetti monster is nice (its part of the concept of the monster, it is not that it is shown be the case that being nice, omnipotent and being able to fly rationally co-occur), my dinner is nice, therefore my dinner is the flying spagetti monster, my dinner exists, therefore the monster exists.
You are begging the question, I think. For the existence of spirit or the devil.
 
I might be going - if so I will probably recognise you from your photo that you have on your university website. Maybe you can explain what kind of law suit you had in mind over a pint or two?
 
TeeJay said:
I might be going - if so I will probably recognise you from your photo that you have on your university website. Maybe you can explain what kind of law suit you had in mind over a pint or two?
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Sure, I'll be delighted. I'll recognize you too.
 
You mean Googled "TeeJay"?

I can't see anything on the first 10 pages of Google image or keyword searches that has anything to do with me - and the same thing applies when I use my real life name as well.

Don't go jumping on random strangers now "phil"!
 
TeeJay said:
You mean Googled "TeeJay"?

I can't see anything on the first 10 pages of Google image or keyword searches that has anything to do with me - and the same thing applies when I use my real life name as well.

Don't go jumping on random strangers now "phil"!
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I won't do to you what you did to me, but you might want to look at the "self-destructive young females" page. I'll recognize you alright. But don't worry, I'm a really nice guy.
 
What exactly did I "do" to you again? You're the one banging on about your books and articles, have posted details here about where you work - and due to your peculiar views and unique 'style' it doesn't take too much effort to work out who you are - and therefore find your biography and photograph posted on the web, although its far more interesting and relevant to actually read some of your articles/essays. Someone will have to check that you haven't ripped off whole chunks of this thread in your new book as well.
 
You're deliberately trying to tell/hint to people where to look to find out my real life identity? Hmmm. Didn't you throw a fit when I accidentally did that and got banned for it?

Seems like you think there are one set of rules for you and one set for everyone else.
 
TeeJay said:
What exactly did I "do" to you again? You're the one banging on about your books and articles, have posted details here about where you work - and due to your peculiar views and unique 'style' it doesn't take too much effort to work out who you are - and therefore find your biography and photograph posted on the web, although its far more interesting and relevant to actually read some of your articles/essays. Someone will have to check that you haven't ripped off whole chunks of this thread in your new book as well.
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Oh believe me, I will--that's the whole point of the thread. And I've always said, and I'll say again, that I'll tell anyone who PM's me who I am. But posting it on these boards without my permission is against the rules: both the rules of this board and my own personal rules. Just stay within these rules and we can be friends. Do we have a date for the 15th?
 
TeeJay said:
Sorry I really don't know what you are talking about. Send me a PM if you want.
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Aaargh! Girls, kill, selves--internet dating site, your pic, all over page, close up, puckered mouth, other pics of you drinking beer, ringing any bells, can you really have forgotten posting it?
 
Ah, I see you've got it now. Nice alternative pic, BTW! So you know that I know who you are. So we're even. See you next Saturday.
 
I trust you will remove his name. I will remove the image link now, so that noone can put the two together.

Edit: I can see you still have a link to the person's photo.
 
It's good to see that you have removed the personal details of another urbanite from your two posts. In your effort to "expose" photos of me you seem to have misidentified me. It's not the done thing to put names to photographs btw.
 
TeeJay said:
Actually I edited that post removing the username and linked to the image instead - so now the only person putting out the information is you in your quote.

I trust you will remove his name. I will remove the image link now, so that noone can put the two together.
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I will indeed remove it. In future, though, I strongly suggest that you *think very carefully* before you post stuff like this, TeeJay. It would save you an awful lot of trouble...
 
TeeJay said:
What a shame. It's always nice having someone looking out for dates etc.

I'm not really bothered at all about anything I post on Suicide Girls - or here for that matter - since I assume that it is on public display, although having had another look at that photo I have decided that I can do much better. I can't remember ever having posted my real life name either there or here tho'.

Nice bit of research there, although I still don't believe that you got that through Googling "TeeJay". Maybe you saw me mention SG here?
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Hey, if someone's going to research me... well, two can play at that game, and I can play it very well indeed. Shall we agree to leave it at that then?
 
I can see that you are not going to edit your posts then. Still want to try and tell everywhere where to go and find out lots of information about me? At least don't tell everyone that some other poor sod is me!

How about getting back on topic?

So this satan thing...

...where did you invent that from again?
 
This quoted from the very first post on this thread:
phildwyer said:
Feel free to ask questions or to raise any objections at this stage, because we will not be retracing our steps as the argument progresses.
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You pretty much fucked that up didn't you phil! :D

(unless of course you accept that the argument hasn't actually progressed)
 
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