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The Rational Proof of God's Existence

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phildwyer said:
You would. I've only read The Fountainhead, but my God, what a load of tosh. I'm appalled to find that she's actually taught on some American philosophy syllabi--that's a far bigger joke and scandal than teaching "Intelligent Design" in science classes. I assume that no-one takes her seriously in the UK?

I've never thought of Rand as a philosopher but she does enjoy that status in the US. Her prose style is laughable and there isn't much there that hasn't been said by Nietzche. No, she is not taken seriously here. However her ideas have found their way into mainstream American thought...perhaps you are familiar with the American Dream?
 
We still haven't actually got anywhere, although nearly 70 pages doing so is pretty impressive.

phil, is this a spoof? it would be a great one.
 
Jo/Joe said:
We still haven't actually got anywhere, although nearly 70 pages doing so is pretty impressive.

phil, is this a spoof? it would be a great one.

It has been a bit of an epic, hasn't it, if I do say so myself. But I'm quite serious, and I *think* we've established that financial value is more appropriately regarded as a "spirit" rather than as an "idea." Now we're moving on to consider the nature of this spirit, or we will be soon.
 
What I meant is that attempting to blur the boundary between owners and labourers, between the exploiters and the exploited, is a well-worn technique of capitalist apologists, of which Rand is a prime, leathery and fag-stained example. There's a Rand quote almost identical to the bit that I highlighted, but after trawling through her diseased literary spurtings for about five minutes I realised that life's just too short.
 
Fruitloop said:
What I meant is that attempting to blur the boundary between owners and labourers, between the exploiters and the exploited, is a well-worn technique of capitalist apologists, of which Rand is a prime, leathery and fag-stained example. There's a Rand quote almost identical to the bit that I highlighted, but after trawling through her diseased literary spurtings for about five minutes I realised that life's just too short.

Ain't that the truth. There aren't many writers who I find actively *unpleasant* to read, but Rand certainly qualifies. Anyway, I remain firm in my contention that the real, logical and dialectical contradiction is between capital and labour, *not* between any social classes, no matter how repugnant glaring disparities in wealth may be. Such disparities are matters of justice, not of logic.
 
and I *think* we've established that financial value is more appropriately regarded as a "spirit" rather than as an "idea."

Before we rush towards the final proof that the lord exists, let's have a show of hands. Who agrees that financial value is 'spirit' rather then anything else? 'Idea' isn't the only other option after all.
 
Jo/Joe said:
Before we rush towards the final proof that the lord exists, let's have a show of hands. Who agrees that financial value is 'spirit' rather then anything else?

Not I.

I suggested a while ago that this was a point in the argument where it could be worth investigating whether phildwyer was smuggling his conclusion in as an assumption. As does the "ontological proof"...

Jo said:
'Idea' isn't the only other option after all.

Indeedy. "Grammar" is an interesting word to explore in this context... I don't think anyone would build an argument for a deity on the existence of regularities in linguistic exchanges...
 
Absolutely not. I think it's a profound mistake to conflate the struggle of social classes simply into the terms of economic self-interest, because this involves the exclusion of the whole field of human action: needs, customs, traditions, morals and values - the real area of action of human life. Nor do I think that the conflict of capital and labour can be seen as a pure theoretical contradiction - it's a product of power relations between actual human actors.
 
ok, ok, so god hasn't been proved yet. have we even achieved anything remotely describable as 'rational' in the last thousand-plus posts?
 
laptop said:
Indeedy. "Grammar" is an interesting word to explore in this context... I don't think anyone would build an argument for a deity on the existence of regularities in linguistic exchanges...

Actually, the second half of my proof will argue precisely this. Are you familiar with Jacques Derrida's Of Grammatology, perhaps the most famous philosophical work of the last 50 years? It argues that linguistic meaning always derives from the *logos,* which as you know is the Biblical word for the "Son" of God.
 
phildwyer said:
Derrida [says] linguistic meaning always derives from the *logos,* which as you know is the Biblical word for the "Son" of God.

And the Greek word for "word". And a metaphor for the existence of language itself. And... been there, done that: anyone who bases any argument (or particularly yours) on a particular interpretation of "logos" is engaging in a major, but transparent and therefore very stupid, conclusion-smuggling excercise.
 
phildwyer said:
It has been a bit of an epic, hasn't it, if I do say so myself. But I'm quite serious, and I *think* we've established that financial value is more appropriately regarded as a "spirit" rather than as an "idea." Now we're moving on to consider the nature of this spirit, or we will be soon.

I have an objection which I would appreciate an answer to before we move on. Your criteria for financial value being a 'spirit' were:

phildwyer said:
(a) it is independent of the human mind: it exists above and beyond the mind of any individual; (b) it has real power and real effects; (c) it exists in an antagonistic or hostile relationship to human beings, damaging or harming them in some way; (d) it can take a material form, although it is not itself material.

I pointed out* that ideas can fit these criteria, as follows:

(a) Ideas exist independently of the human mind, if you take 'the human mind' to mean "the mind of any individual" as you appear to.

(b) Ideas have real power and effects. Take, for example, Laws.

(c) Certain ideas can be harmful too, eg. racism, homophobia, etc.

(d) So can ideas, I could make a painting, or a sculpture of a unicorn, even though such creatures only exist as ideas.

You have not shown the difference between ideas and spirits.

Have you added/changed any criteria to address this point?

* Post 707
 
Jo/Joe said:
Before we rush towards the final proof that the lord exists, let's have a show of hands. Who agrees that financial value is 'spirit' rather then anything else? 'Idea' isn't the only other option after all.
Go away man cause we no love pagan
I and I dun see de light.

now me gan fi speak in de prophet tongue.

There are dem who constantly dey hef bin placing
The rocks on the tracks leaving devil snairs laying.
And them wish fi all who dem hate to be falling
Yet inna dem face they witness thy uprising.

Me haffi holla out
Phil Dwyer, him the Royal son of King David
So Babylon why you try to deny
The urban youths loyal knowledge ?
 
gurrier said:
Go away man cause we no love pagan
I and I dun see de light.

now me gan fi speak in de prophet tongue.

There are dem who constantly dey hef bin placing
The rocks on the tracks leaving devil snairs laying.
And them wish fi all who dem hate to be falling
Yet inna dem face they witness thy uprising.

Me haffi holla out
Phil Dwyer, him the Royal son of King David
So Babylon why you try to deny
The urban youths loyal knowledge ?

Say that no matter how you bad I man badder than you
No matter how you dread I man dreader than you
No matter how you hard I man harder than you
No matter how you raw I more
Weak heart back weh so

A bad man a no want go back in captivity
A bad man a no want go back to slavery
Uprising from the claws of the wicked

Two bulls can't reign in one pen
Two lions can't roar in a small den now
Two scorpions don't sting at the same spot
Two guns can't fire the same bullet

A bad man a no want go back in captivity
A bad man a no want go back to slavery
Uprising from the claws of the wicked

Two kings don't wear the same crown
Two beauties don't have the same gown on
Tomorrow is too late to leave town
If you're still here at noon,
There'll be one big, big, big showdown oh
 
Pickman's model said:
bin ban etc :mad:

Seconded.

FFS, I can't believe this is still going. I've been away for two weeks and nothing has changed. I thought that you weren't going to allow yourself to be diverted from your godsquadism (c) by diversionary tactics, Phil. Seems to me that they're proving to be a very useful sideline. Can't you summarise your argument in a few short paragraphs? Or is that going to expose the gaping holes in your argument?

Good to be back!:D

*flexes argumentative muscles*
 
trashpony said:
Seconded.

FFS, I can't believe this is still going. I've been away for two weeks and nothing has changed. I thought that you weren't going to allow yourself to be diverted from your godsquadism (c) by diversionary tactics, Phil. Seems to me that they're proving to be a very useful sideline. Can't you summarise your argument in a few short paragraphs? Or is that going to expose the gaping holes in your argument?

Good to be back!:D

*flexes argumentative muscles*

Greetings Trashpony, good to have you back. We actually have made quite a bit of progress, but you know what the heathen are, they continually try to drag us backwards. Fear not though: the Truth always triumphs in the end. Been anywhere nice? I'm off on a bit of world tour myself next week: Montreal, Cardiff, London, Amsterdam and Istanbul in ten days. No rest for the righteous!
 
While we're posting random lyrics...

phildwyer said:
Say that no matter how you bad I man badder than you
No matter how you dread I man dreader than you
No matter how you hard I man harder than you
No matter how you raw I more
Weak heart back weh so

A bad man a no want go back in captivity
A bad man a no want go back to slavery
Uprising from the claws of the wicked

Two bulls can't reign in one pen
Two lions can't roar in a small den now
Two scorpions don't sting at the same spot
Two guns can't fire the same bullet

A bad man a no want go back in captivity
A bad man a no want go back to slavery
Uprising from the claws of the wicked

Two kings don't wear the same crown
Two beauties don't have the same gown on
Tomorrow is too late to leave town
If you're still here at noon,
There'll be one big, big, big showdown oh
Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
 
Doomsy said:
I have an objection which I would appreciate an answer to before we move on. Your criteria for financial value being a 'spirit' were:

I pointed out* that ideas can fit these criteria, as follows:

(a) Ideas exist independently of the human mind, if you take 'the human mind' to mean "the mind of any individual" as you appear to.

(b) Ideas have real power and effects. Take, for example, Laws.

(c) Certain ideas can be harmful too, eg. racism, homophobia, etc.

(d) So can ideas, I could make a painting, or a sculpture of a unicorn, even though such creatures only exist as ideas.

You have not shown the difference between ideas and spirits.

Have you added/changed any criteria to address this point?

* Post 707

Hiya Doomsy. I put it to you that (a) financial value is far more powerful than any other idea. Laws, for example, serve the interests of financial value, not the other way around; (b) racism, homophobia and other harmful ideas are the direct result of financial value's influence. Racism, for example, emerged in its modern form only with the profit-driven slave trade and colonialism. Yes, I'm an economic determinist. And most important, (c) financial value is different from any other idea because of its *essence,* which is human life *per se,* human activity considered as a whole. This is true of *no* other idea. So, again, financial value is a completely unique idea, to the degree that it no longer makes sense to describe it as such.
 
In Bloom said:
Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

There is nothing in this world quite as touching as a teenager who has just been exposed to Bob Dylan for the first time. How sweet. Have you read "Catcher in the Rye" yet? Or "On the Road?" We await your continued explorations in adolescent angst with the keenest anticipation.
 
phildwyer said:
There is nothing in this world quite as touching as a teenager who has just been exposed to Bob Dylan for the first time. How sweet. Have you read "Catcher in the Rye" yet? Or "On the Road?" We await your continued explorations in adolescent angst with the keenest anticipation.
Just the first artist that came to mind, is all, no need to get so arsey about it :)

(though "for the first time" is hardly accurate, what with my slightly hippyish folks)
 
In Bloom said:
Just the first artist that came to mind, is all, no need to get so arsey about it :)

(though "for the first time" is hardly accurate, what with my slightly hippyish folks)

Get them to play you some Iggy and the Stooges, that'll learn ya.
 
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