The Pro-Putin Left

[LDC]

Well perhaps we all need reminding that our news is going to be full of propaganda and that it’s healthy to look beyond the narrative especially when we are engaged in a proxy war.

Hmmm.

 

[rekil]

What sources would you recommend?

No answer huh?

I see RT had Nick Fuentes on to bang on about 'russophobia'.

Spoiler

 

[Flavour]

The war in Ukraine: Fact and fiction | Socialist Appeal

The conflict in Ukraine has seen a massive campaign of propaganda by western politicians and press, designed to whip up jingoism and distract from problems back home. Marxists must cut through the lies and reveal the real class interests at play.

www.socialist.net

Socialist Appeal hitting new highs (lows) casting doubt on Bucha, among other things

"Would the Ukrainian side be capable of such deception? The question itself is the height of naivety. It is very clear that the Ukrainians have from the very beginning been involved in an elaborate, sophisticated, and highly-effective campaign of disinformation, which is repeated and magnified by all the media of the western world. Since information plays such a key role in this war, it would be hard to imagine that they would not use such methods.

In order to identify the perpetrator of any crime, the first question that must be asked is: Cui bono? Who benefits?

To commit mass murder and then leave the victims lying on the street to be found by the enemy does not seem to be the most likely tactic for the Russians, who would not benefit from it in the slightest degree.

But for the Ukrainians, who, despite all the absurd bombast, now find themselves in an increasingly desperate position, the benefit of such propaganda is of immeasurable importance. It would add far greater weight to the pleas for more military help that Zelensky has once again repeated on the floor of the UN Security Council. Oh yes! This is worth an entire shipment of anti-tank rockets for a man with his back to the wall."

 

[mojo pixy]

"In order to identify the perpetrator of any crime, the first question that must be asked is: Cui bono? Who benefits?"

Fucking hell

 

[Flavour]

It's funny isn't it -- the Continuity Trotskyist Left writing lines that could easily have come from Marine Le Pen.

 

[nogojones]

No answer huh?

I see RT had Nick Fuentes on to bang on about 'russophobia'.

Spoiler

View attachment 320138

It's OK. He's just looking beyond the narrative.

 

[Lurdan]

I see RT had Nick Fuentes on to bang on about 'russophobia'.

Indeed, although (for amusement purposes) some context. Fuentes gave a short interview to RT. Being Fuentes he then sought to use this forthcoming appearance to do some brand building. As an example one of his droogs rocked up to 4chan and started a thread about it.

The resulting discussion could possibly have gone better. A surprisingly large number of the people responding seemed less concerned with the significance of his appearance on RT than with the issue of whether he was homosexual.

And the RT appearance itself might not have been all he was hoping for. (You can see it here on YouTube).

It was an item about Florence Gaub's views about Russians, which have made it to her wikipedia page

(...) Gaub aimed at explaining the considerable losses endured by the Russian military and societal tolerance levels of violence, resulting in some controversy. During this appearance, Gaub argued that Russians may look European but are not really European, as they do not embrace a liberal, post-modern sense of life, and view violence and death differently due to the low life expectancy in Russia.

A clip of Fuentes was played in response. It was introduced like this:

Earlier we spoke to the CEO of cozy.tv and the host of America First who said the rhetoric is Russophobic.

Although it got in the plug for a couple of his ventures it very notably avoided using his name.

RT knew who they were interviewing and what he stands for. They may well have been aware of the 'Putin joke' he made at a recent AFPAC.


View attachment 2vafHVSsHTSmaEaf.mp4


Perhaps they were also aware of his efforts to publicise his appearance.

At any rate while they were happy to use him as an unnamed talking head they clearly didn't see him as an especially useful 'useful idiot'.

 

[The39thStep]

It's funny isn't it -- the Continuity Trotskyist Left writing lines that could easily have come from Marine Le Pen.

They got invited for some reason to speak at ANPIs London meeting on Liberation of Italy Day

 

[scalyboy]

The war in Ukraine: Fact and fiction | Socialist Appeal

The conflict in Ukraine has seen a massive campaign of propaganda by western politicians and press, designed to whip up jingoism and distract from problems back home. Marxists must cut through the lies and reveal the real class interests at play.

www.socialist.net

Socialist Appeal hitting new highs (lows) casting doubt on Bucha, among other things

"Cui bono? Who benefits? To commit mass murder and then leave the victims lying on the street to be found by the enemy does not seem to be the most likely tactic for the Russians, who would not benefit from it in the slightest degree."
How f***ing stupid, of course they benefit - by terrorising the population as they did in the 2nd Chechen War, and as used elsewhere, e.g. in the breakup of Yugoslavia - for the purposes of ethnic cleansing - terrorise the local population to vacate an area and then repopulate it with your own people.

 

[Rob Ray]

But really, did the US commit the My Lai massacre? To commit mass murder and then leave the victims lying on the street to be found by the enemy does not seem to be the most likely tactic for the Americans, who would not benefit from it in the slightest degree ...

 

[belboid]

But really, did the US commit the My Lai massacre? To commit mass murder and then leave the victims lying on the street to be found by the enemy does not seem to be the most likely tactic for the Americans, who would not benefit from it in the slightest degree ...

This is not far off from greensteins argument (which I briefly glanced over just to increase my blood pressure). It’s only yanks who kill people that way, so they must have taught the Ukrainians how to do it. Obvs.

There’s some crap copied directly from the Russian military too, which has been disproven, but most of his readers don’t bother reading anything else it seems, as that’s all Yankee propaganda

 

[scalyboy]

Having mentioned the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s, that reminds me of a particularly fatuous piece of logic on the part of the pro-Serbian left in the UK and elsewhere. I believe it runs like this: during WW2 the Serbs were the good guys and horribly persecuted, while the Croats and Bosniaks were allies of Hitler, therefore the Serbs must be the good guys today (in the early 1990s I mean). I can't prove this of course.
But I would guess the same foolish logic applies today for some of the pro-Putin left: the USSR defeated the Nazis at a terrible cost during WW2 while some Ukrainians sided with Hitler... so big up Putin and his 'denazification'.

As to why some on the right / far right idolise Putin, that's down to something different I guess - adoration of a perceived 'strong man' who is an enemy of 'liberal democracy'?

 

[Shechemite]

Having mentioned the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s, that reminds me of a particularly fatuous piece of logic on the part of the pro-Serbian left in the UK and elsewhere. I believe it runs like this: during WW2 the Serbs were the good guys and horribly persecuted, while the Croats and Bosniaks were allies of Hitler, therefore the Serbs must be the good guys today (in the early 1990s I mean). I can't prove this of course.
But I would guess the same foolish logic applies today for some of the pro-Putin left: the USSR defeated the Nazis at a terrible cost during WW2 while some Ukrainians sided with Hitler... so big up Putin and his 'denazification'.

As to why some on the right / far right idolise Putin, that's down to something different I guess - adoration of a perceived 'strong man' who is an enemy of 'liberal democracy'?

I went to an anti-war (or ‘anti-war’ perhaps in retrospect) outside the NATO place in Northwood in 1998 during the Serb attack on Kosovo, and there was some bloke with a CPB poster doing a speech on the bravery of the Serbs in WW2. Felt a bit off even for my 13 year old unbearably teenage communist self

 

[Combustible]

"In order to identify the perpetrator of any crime, the first question that must be asked is: Cui bono? Who benefits?"

Fucking hell

Same line of argument as 9/11 truthers

 

[RD2003]

Well perhaps we all need reminding that our news is going to be full of propaganda and that it’s healthy to look beyond the narrative especially when we are engaged in a proxy war.

Leon Panetta, pro-war former US defence secretary and CIA director, agrees that it is indeed a proxy war. U.S. Is in a Proxy War With Russia: Panetta

 

[Humberto]

Lazy to link to a video on a discussion thread without a real synopsis.

 

[RD2003]

Lazy to link to a video on a discussion thread without a real synopsis.

I'm terribly fucking sorry.

 

[ska invita]

under any reasonable definition its obviously a proxy war - the disagreement is about the framing of that proxy war
for pro-putinists its another evil proxy war of aggression from the US/UK/NATO
for pro-NATOists its nothing more than an honourable proxy war of defence
i think the truth is somewhere between: a totally justifiable proxy war of defence, that happens to fit neatly with longer-term expansionist objectives

 

[Humberto]

It's a war of expansion. A gamble that the other axis won't resist and will fall apart, and that its undermining of said axis will deliver a fatal blow when it comes to the crunch. It's failed.

 

[RD2003]

under any reasonable definition its obviously a proxy war - the disagreement is about the framing of that proxy war
for pro-putinists its another evil proxy war of aggression from the US/UK/NATO
for pro-NATOists its nothing more than an honourable proxy war of defence
i think the truth is somewhere between: a totally justifiable proxy war of defence, that happens to fit neatly with longer-term expansionist objectives

And yet war is not just an abstract discussion. Both sides are engaged in a grotesque death waltz (and this applies no matter who is right or wrong, even if this is something that can be defintively agreed upon). It needs to be ended as soon as possible, and this can only involve compromise. Anybody who disputes this isn't as horrified by death, rape, genocide etc (take your pick) as they purport to be.

 

[Humberto]

What would be the compromise? Who has raped, kidnapped and buried innocent people?

 

[RD2003]

What would be the compromise? Who has raped, kidnapped and buried innocent people?

I don't know exactly what the compromise would be. Neither does anybody else on here. But a compromise peace is better than a mounting death toll, even if it only proves temporary, especially as this war isn't being fought over something that can be permanently solved.

Too many people have got lost in good versus evil fantasies, as if these are tangible things, and as if the world actually works on that basis.

 

[Humberto]

I don't know exactly what the compromise would be. Neither does anybody else on here. But a compromise peace is better than a mounting death toll, even if it only proves temporary, especially as this war isn't being fought over something that can actually be permanently solved.

Too may people have got lost in good versus evil fantasies, as if these are tangible things, and as if the world actually works on that basis.

What like wanton state sponsered rape, destruction and murder?

 

[Humberto]

Tangible as fuck out there you gobshite.

 

[RD2003]

Tangible as fuck out there you gobshite.

Thanks. I respect you for taking the time to respond.

 

[RD2003]

What like wanton state sponsered rape, destruction and murder?

So unsatisfactory peace agreements haven't happened over the centuries after such regrettable-and apparently, in situations of war, ineradicable-crimes have taken place?

 

[Humberto]

So unsatisfactory peace agreements haven't happened over the centuries after such regrettable-and apparently, in situations of war, ineradicable-crimes have taken place?

Que?

 

[Wilf]

Of course it's not exactly a proxy war on the Russian side.

 

[RD2003]

Of course it's not exactly a proxy war on the Russian side.

On the Russian side, the war is in the hands of people who apparently see themselves and their country in an existential struggle. Given that, it doesn't matter, in practical terms, if this is true or not.

 

[Humberto]

Of course it matters you filth-dweeb.