The Pro-Putin Left

[Rob Ray]

Ah RD2003 has read that Guardian article then. I do enjoy the "if we appease the expansionist dictator maybe they'll stop" argument, which has no famous examples at all of any unintended worse consequences happening down the line.

 

[RD2003]

Ah RD2003 has read that Guardian article then. I do enjoy the "if we appease the expansionist dictator maybe they'll stop" argument, which has no famous examples at all of any unintended worse consequences happening down the line.

There may be few or no examples But when people are dying in their thousands, then maybe a temporary respite my be beneficial? It isn't as if bad consequences don't arise out of more or less all situations, is it?

This war clearly isn't going to see a definitive end, and we're already happily contemplating the worst threat of nuclear war since Cuba '62 as a result of naively treating it as a fight to the finish between good and bad/ light versus darkness (all of them mere illusions.)

Arguably the seeds of the next world war were planted with the defeat of Nazi Germany. Over subsequent decades, only M.A.D. avoided our total destruction. Again arguably, the M.A.D. concept is in the process of being discarded. And over what exactly?

 

[Humberto]

Mere illusions of dead innocents! What the actual fuck. Shame.

 

[Wilf]

On the Russian side, the war is in the hands of people who apparently see themselves and their country in an existential struggle. Given that, it doesn't matter, in practical terms, if this is true or not.

If we start our analysis with 'they might think this... which appears to be wrong anyway... but as a result we'll leave them to get on with it', well, y'know, gee, gosh, oh my.

Rather than dragging us round these unruly loops, I'd prefer it if you went back to your high minded lectures on neoliberalism, the failure of the left and the Russian Soul. I loved all that stuff.

 

[RD2003]

If we start our analysis with 'they might think this... which appears to be wrong anyway... but as a result we'll leave them to get on with it', well, y'know, gee, gosh, oh my.

Rather than dragging us round these unruly loops, I'd prefer it if you went back to your high minded lectures on neoliberalism, the failure of the left and the Russian Soul. I loved all that stuff.

I prefer it when you stick to politics. You can be very good.

 

[Rob Ray]

You can be very good.

Well at least one of you can be.

 

[Wilf]

I prefer it when you stick to politics. You can be very good.

Aww, c'mon, guvnor. Just a quick overview, like one of them clever fellows who do talks on the BBC Home Service!

 

[RD2003]

Aww, c'mon, guvnor. Just a quick overview, like one of them clever fellows who do talks on the BBC Home Service!

As if you don't talk as if you know the way the world works. When you do, I often like it, as I said. You have politics when you can be bothered to put analysis over emotion.

Both of us being from the Manchester area, of a similar age, and from the same tiny milieu, I sometimes get the feeling that we might have encountered each other. Did you used to be in Militant?

 

[Wilf]

Both of us being from the Manchester area, of a similar age, and from the same tiny milieu, I sometimes get the feeling that we might have encountered each other. Did you used to be in Militant?

North Manchester, yes, Militant no! I went from the Labour left in my 20s to anarchism 40s onwards, without ever touching down on planet Trot at any point inbetween. Thank fuck!

 

[RD2003]

North Manchester, yes, Militant no! I went from the Labour left in my 20s to anarchism 40s onwards, without ever touching down on planet Trot at any point inbetween. Thank fuck!

So you dropped out of politics after the Labour left.

 

[Wilf]

So you dropped out of politics after the Labour left.

Oh and we were getting on so well!

 

[RD2003]

Oh and we were getting on so well!

Come on, anarchism isn't politics. It's wishful thinking.

 

[Rob Ray]

Thank goodness for that, please no-one dissuade RD2003 of his views on anarchism - we've got enough problems without him.

 

[RD2003]

Thank goodness for that, please no-one dissuade RD2003 of his views on anarchism - we've got enough problems without him.

That one sentence was my view on anarchism. It doesn't matter to you or anarchism. Or me, as it happens.

 

[Rob Ray]

Great, you stick with that.

 

[RD2003]

Great, you stick with that.

Permanent political ineffectualism, along with contempt/ total indifference from right, left and everybody else, must be a hard lifetime's burden.

The illusion that anarchism (whether here or in Ukraine/Russia) has some kind of say or input into the current war is kind of touching, as is the denial of those anarchists on here that they are just tail-ending the liberal idea that there are actually goodies and baddies in this war, and that a definitively good outcome is actually possible.

But I do sincerely wish you luck. I genuinely think that the vast majority of those attracted to anarchism are sound people. As I said, though, it doesn't matter what I think. Or you.

 

[Rob Ray]

Sure thing bud.

 

[ska invita]

And yet war is not just an abstract discussion. Both sides are engaged in a grotesque death waltz (and this applies no matter who is right or wrong, even if this is something that can be defintively agreed upon). It needs to be ended as soon as possible, and this can only involve compromise. Anybody who disputes this isn't as horrified by death, rape, genocide etc (take your pick) as they purport to be.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but it ignores Russian zeal and plans, which are ambitious and they after pushing full steam ahead with, namely to claim the coast, and beyond. There's no deal to be done other than to give them it asap...

There's a moral case that can be made for that capitulation ...there's also a moral case against... What land they can claim the Russian army can regroup in and continue spreading from.

At the start I imagined they just wanted to move into a limited part of Donbas.... Looks like they would like much more than that . No deal now would stop future Russian aggression, bombing of civilians, rape etc., In fact it makes it more likely.

In the end I expect they will get some territory, though how much is not a certainty.

It's a lose lose situation.....I just wish it had never come to this, which is why understanding and naming the roots of it are so important

 

[ska invita]

On the Russian side, the war is in the hands of people who apparently see themselves and their country in an existential struggle. Given that, it doesn't matter, in practical terms, if this is true or not.

Not quite, it's not Russia that's in an existential struggle, it's Russian empire. The two are related of course.

 

[RD2003]

I agree with the spirit of your post, but it ignores Russian zeal and plans, which are ambitious and they after pushing full steam ahead with, namely to claim the coast, and beyond. There's no deal to be done other than to give them it asap...

There's a moral case that can be made for that capitulation ...there's also a moral case against... What land they can claim the Russian army can regroup in and continue spreading from.

At the start I imagined they just wanted to move into a limited part of Donbas.... Looks like they would like much more than that . No deal now would stop future Russian aggression, bombing of civilians, rape etc., In fact it makes it more likely.

In the end I expect they will get some territory, though how much is not a certainty.

It's a lose lose situation.....I just wish it had never come to this, which is why understanding and naming the roots of it are so important

If the focus would have been on forcing all sides to sign the Minsk agreement, there would have been few or no needless deaths.

I still don't see how the Russians are going to be unstoppable, while those who are claiming this can simultaneously assert that the Russians have been crippled by this war.

 

[RD2003]

Not quite, it's not Russia that's in an existential struggle, it's Russian empire. The two are related of course.

It's both. And there is literally nothing the outside world can do to persuade them otherwise.

Neither side is going to just leave it.

 

[ska invita]

Neither side is going to just leave it.

so why do you expect there is any chance of a peace deal being made?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's both. And there is literally nothing the outside world can do to persuade them otherwise.

Neither side is going to just leave it.

it's been seven or eight weeks since going phil mitchell-like 'leave it, he's not worth it' had any chance of getting the opponents to break up the scrap

 

[RD2003]

so why do you expect there is any chance of a peace deal being made?

Because neither side can afford the risks of never-ending escalation. Perhaps.

 

[ska invita]

Because neither side can afford the risks of never-ending escalation. Perhaps.

Russia has got bored of even pretending to want a peace deal....what you or anyone else wants doesn't have any bearing on reality

 

[RD2003]

Russia has got bored of even pretending to want a peace deal....what you or anyone else wants doesn't have any bearing on reality

It doesn't mean we won't actually see one in the end (presuming we don't see the mushroom cloud first). And it will be messy as fuck.

 

[Pickman's model]

there may be trouble ahead but while there's moonlight and music and love and romance...

 

[ska invita]

It doesn't mean we won't actually see one in the end (presuming we don't see the mushroom cloud first). And it will be messy as fuck.

im sure so....a more violent northern ireland-esque situation

 

[Pickman's model]

im sure so....a more violent northern ireland-esque situation

i'm not sure the analogy holds given the different political contexts of the ukraine / russia thing and the uk / six counties / 26 counties thing

 

[ska invita]

i'm not sure the analogy holds given the different political contexts of the ukraine / russia thing and the uk / six counties / 26 counties thing

Why not?
I forsee Russia claiming some territory, with a new border, integrating that territory into its empire, and within that area there will be some locals who align with Russia whilst others will want (and fight) for re-integration with Ukraine.