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the neoliberal vision of the future

onarchy said:
Not only have I read history books, I also happen to know which parts of that history isn't told properly in the standard story. For instance, how many history books say that The German National SOCIALIST Worker's Party was as their name indicates, socialist? How many people know that Mussolini and Hitler were immensely popular on the left before WWII? How many people know that Stalin in a propaganda war against the fascists and Nazis branded them as "right wing" to scare away the communist voters who were interested in them and wanted to vote for them? How many people know that Stalin ALSO called the social democrats "right wing" and termed them "social fascists"? Stalins definition of "right wing" was someone who favored ANY private property in business, even when hampered by high taxes and regulations? These are historical facts that are well-known among historians, but not often retold.

And then there is the socalled difficulty in defining fascism. Do you know WHY it is so hard for historians to define fascism? Because either fascism becomes extremely narrow (essentially just Italian fascism) or it also includes all socialists, all social democrats and most conservatives. The "difficulty" lies in the fact that Hitler and Mussolini were so close to the mainstream socialism at the time that if you break down their actualy policies you will find no essential differences. Let me list a few of Hitlers policies:

- a strong welfare state (public health care, public schools, public pensions, public child care)
- strong regulations of key industries
- high taxes
- redistribution of wealth

Who does this sound most like? a) "right wing neo-liberals"? or b) centrist social democrats?
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lol

It says socialist on the TIN. Can't you READ morans!


onarchy said:
The United States and all European countries are democratic fascist corporatist systems, right wing socialism.
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genius :D
 
Random said:
Don't you think that if you say that most of the political spectrum is 'fascist' that it make the term vague to the point of uselessness? You're like a teenager who calls his mum a fascist because he can't stay up late.
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Which is generally what Ayn Randist cult believers seem to be. Spotty little oiks and furtive masturbators who can't shrug off teenage temper tantrums.
 
Maybe onarchy could give us a list of the political systems that aren't fascist? It seems as though it'll be a short one. I agree btw that state socialism, conservatism - plus liberalism - all share a lot of aspects with fascism. They all depend on the force of the state to defend emplyers and to extract labour power from teh working class.
 
We really do have to start right at the beginning with this one, eh?

Freedoms come in two forms: freedom to act and freedom not to be acted upon by others. The two are often in conflict – your freedom to drive as fast as you like, to use Trxta's example, impinges upon my freedom to walk the streets in safety. The state is the right and proper place in which these freedoms are to be balanced, because without protection for this second aspect to freedom, there is no freedom at all.

That's point one – if your political philosophy does not account for it, then it is worthless.

Point two is one of simple logic fail. I couldn't care less whether or not you classify Hitler as socialist or not. That does not disqualify the ideas of all other people who call themselves socialist if those ideas are not Hitlerian. You don't win arguments with semantics. You win them with ideas.
 
onarchy said:
For instance, how many history books say that The German National SOCIALIST Worker's Party was as their name indicates, socialist? How many people know that Mussolini and Hitler were immensely popular on the left before WWII?
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Really? How many times have I heard that strawman being trotted out? Too many to count. Tell me this, onanist, if Mussolini and Hitler were "popular on the left before WWII", why did they go around smashing left-wing skulls and left wing printing presses? There was nothing SOCIALIST about the Nazis. Furthermore, if you're such a student of history, how do you account for the political migration of people like Oswald Mosley? It's funny how people like you always ignore the Italian futurists, who all described themselves as you describe yourself. They were more than happy to support Mussolini, who gave them what they wanted. In fact, the vast majority of semi-fascist authoritarians (like Pinochet) always accommodate soi-disant libertarians. Then there's the laissez faire Anti-Socialist League of the early 20c, who gave their support of Mosley's BUF.

You're not much of a history student are you?
 
onarchy said:
Not all, but most. George Bush for instance, is a classical fascist left-wing conservative. No US president expanded the welfare state more than him.
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Again, there is a small germ of truth in what you say here. Most so-called consevatives have long understood that without welfare states capitalism would have callapsed long ago (not necessarily to be replaced by 'socialism' either.) The dilemma for them is that the more you try to cut back the welfare state, as conservative (and 'socialist') governments periodically do, the more you create conditions where the state has to deal with the fallout, as private business is incapable of doing so and refuses anyway. Yet at the same time, it's true that the Bush regime did more than most to spread neo-liberal/neo conservative ideology and practice across the world by force.

Your kind have a lot in common with many of the 'communists' and 'socialists' you rail against in that you are all doomed to forever rant ineffectually about ideas so fanciful that they'll never get off paper. That's why the internet is so attractive to you.
 
Random said:
Maybe onarchy could give us a list of the political systems that aren't fascist? It seems as though it'll be a short one. I agree btw that state socialism, conservatism - plus liberalism - all share a lot of aspects with fascism. They all depend on the force of the state to defend emplyers and to extract labour power from teh working class.
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The arguments of his kind mirror those of many 'communists': arguments that run along the familiar lines of 'communism has never really been tried, all regimes run by communists have been imposters or crypto-capitalists' equals the Randist's 'true capitalism has never existed, all capitalism is run by people who are really welfare state socialists or communists.'

We exist in a world of bullshit.
 
Random said:
But where do the Jews fit into all of this?
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That's very simple: European Jews (Askenazim) are incredibly smart and statistically dramatically overrepresented among the smartest people, and hence you find a lot of Jews in all sorts of intellectually demanding professions: physics, chemistry, chess, mathematics, litterature and yes BUSINESS. Look at New York and Wall Street. Lots of lots of Jews. Look at the oligarchs of Russia today: Jews. Look at the great industrialists of Germany and Austria in the late 19th century: Jews.

Now, for ME, a tolerant classical liberal who know that businessmen produce a lot of wealth for others and that being a successful businessman is very demanding, it is neither any surprise that there are so many rich Jews nor any problem. I am greatful to their role in producing wealth and jobs for the rest of us.

HOWEVER, if you are schooled in the Marxist theory of economics you are trained to view capitalists as PIGS and PARASITES that EXPLOIT the workers. Now, go back to Germany during the time that Hitler was growing up. What did he see and what did he learn about capitalism? Being a good socialist he had learned that capitalists were horrible exploiters, and he also noticed that a whole lot of these captialists were Jews. In fact, for a long time Jew and capitalist were almost synonyms. In German there is an expression called "Judensau" which means "Jew Pig." Today the remnant of that expression is used by socialists in the term "capitalist pig."

So to make a long story short: it is the Marxist theory of economics that lead to Jews being viewed as exploiters, which lead to the great antisemitism of the late 19th and early 20th century in Germany and other places. Thus, Nazism grew very naturally out of a society with a Marxist worldview.
 
butchersapron said:
Thanks for simplifying it for me phil. When you say 'project' you mean state right?
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No. Definitely not. Read my post again. The whole point of my post was to explain that the objectives of a sovereign state are in direct conflict with the objectives of neo-liberalism - or the neo-liberal project which which does not respect national borders.
 
onarchy said:
That's very simple: European Jews (Askenazim) are incredibly smart and statistically dramatically overrepresented among the smartest people, and hence you find a lot of Jews in all sorts of intellectually demanding professions: physics, chemistry, chess, mathematics, litterature and yes BUSINESS. Look at New York and Wall Street. Lots of lots of Jews. Look at the oligarchs of Russia today: Jews. Look at the great industrialists of Germany and Austria in the late 19th century: Jews.

Now, for ME, a tolerant classical liberal who know that businessmen produce a lot of wealth for others and that being a successful businessman is very demanding, it is neither any surprise that there are so many rich Jews nor any problem. I am greatful to their role in producing wealth and jobs for the rest of us.

HOWEVER, if you are schooled in the Marxist theory of economics you are trained to view capitalists as PIGS and PARASITES that EXPLOIT the workers. Now, go back to Germany during the time that Hitler was growing up. What did he see and what did he learn about capitalism? Being a good socialist he had learned that capitalists were horrible exploiters, and he also noticed that a whole lot of these captialists were Jews. In fact, for a long time Jew and capitalist were almost synonyms. In German there is an expression called "Judensau" which means "Jew Pig." Today the remnant of that expression is used by socialists in the term "capitalist pig."

So to make a long story short: it is the Marxist theory of economics that lead to Jews being viewed as exploiters, which lead to the great antisemitism of the late 19th and early 20th century in Germany and other places. Thus, Nazism grew very naturally out of a society with a Marxist worldview.
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Capitalists are exploiters, though, in that they exploit the labour of others for their own ends, and because Hitler may have recognised this it doesn't mean that all socialists are secretly followers of Hitler.

In any case, most capitalists would probably admit that they are exploiters. Exploitation doesn't necessarily have to be a pejorative term, and capitalists are not necessarily evil. There have been just as many evil socialists as capitalists. But the argument isn't about personalities or personal failings.
 
onarchy said:
So to make a long story short: it is the Marxist theory of economics that lead to Jews being viewed as exploiters, which lead to the great antisemitism of the late 19th and early 20th century in Germany and other places. Thus, Nazism grew very naturally out of a society with a Marxist worldview.
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How do you explain the fact that judophobia preceded marism, and indeed capitalism, in Europe and Germany
 
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