The Home Office and UK government policy concerning asylum seekers/Rwanda deportations

[steveo87]

he was just desparate to say "send them back"

He does....

 

[belboid]

At risk of being the liberal here, I think both sides have a point. Use of the slang 'shekel' for money is probably Bible-based, I would think. But it's also true enough, as SL says, that it is used in explicitly antisemitic circles. Language usage changes and with it we sometimes need to change. The term 'Aryan' was entirely neutral once upon a time, but we say 'Indo-European' now because that term was hijacked by racists. Sometimes words are hijacked by racists and there's not a lot we can do about it except use something else.

This is especially true about using words in particular contexts. While generally using shekels as a synonym for money is probably fine, there are contexts where anyone should realise that using it could well be taken as deliberately bigoted. Even with less contentious, but still potentially bigoted, words it's just obvious to just avoid them. Anyone continuously using black as a synonym for bad (black mood, a black day, etc etc) in a meeting on racism would similarly be an idiot.

 

[existentialist]

No, I won't - I can see how using the word in an anti-Semitic context, say in accusing a politician of being secretly funded by 'the Israel lobby', would be anti-Semitic in itself, but the word used in exactly the same way you might use pounds, or notes, or quid in saying how much a bike, or car, or meal out cost you, is not in any way anti-semitic, it's simply one of many non-English words that have made it into the common lexicon, and the common lexicon is better off for it.

When I was in my teens/20s, the word "wonga" got used a fair bit for money. It didn't come with any particular payload, it was just a term that we used. It was only afterwards (by some time) that I realised it was a term of Romani origin.

I'd struggle with the idea of someone calling me anti-Roma on the strength of that.

ETA: for that matter, "spondulix" got used a fair bit too (I seem to have done a lot of talking about money ), but neither would that be implying any anti-Greek sentiment.

 

[Spymaster]

When I was in my teens/20s, the word "wonga" got used a fair bit for money. It didn't come with any particular payload, it was just a term that we used. It was only afterwards (by some time) that I realised it was a term of Romani origin.

Didn't know that, and it was only about an hour ago that I heard that Shekels is used pejoratively by anti-semites.

Is that for certain, or is this a U75 thing?

 

[ouirdeaux]

I'd struggle with the idea of someone calling me anti-Roma on the strength of that.

That's because pretty much nobody asssociates the word with Roma. You've just found it out, as did I from your post.

By contrast, I suspect most people know that 'shekel' is associated with Jews, one way or the other. I don't mean that everyone who uses it is aware of its antisemitic associations (including the person who posted it here), but it has them.

 

[belboid]

Are we going to do 'why is it okay to say Aussies but not....' next?

 

[existentialist]

Didn't know that, and it was only about an hour ago that I heard that Shekels is used pejoratively by anti-semites.

Is that for certain, or is this a U75 thing?

Wiktionary seems to agree with what I recall being told...




Originally from the Sanskrit. I've got no beef with them, either

(AIR, a lot of Romani is borrowed from Sanskrit, via Hindi...)

 

[Dystopiary]

idiot.

is also problematic.

 

[Elpenor]

Didn't know that, and it was only about an hour ago that I heard that Shekels is used pejoratively by anti-semites.

Is that for certain, or is this a U75 thing?

Use of the word shekels has been shackled

 

[skyscraper101]

Sunak bringing in Emergency laws now. He's gonna out Braverman Braverman

 

[Mezzer]

He does....

View attachment 400158

You missed this bit:

"There’s a reason everyone in this country locks their back door at night - because they don’t want intruders coming in. These people are intruders.”

What a thick racist bastard he is.

 

[existentialist]

That's because pretty much nobody asssociates the word with Roma. You've just found it out, as did I from your post.

By contrast, I suspect most people know that 'shekel' is associated with Jews, one way or the other. I don't mean that everyone who uses it is aware of its antisemitic associations (including the person who posted it here), but it has them.

Not just found it out - I found it out while I was still using it, albeit some time after I started using it. FWIW, I can recall using "shekels", too, in similar ignorance of its origin. It's not the word itself - it's the intention behind it. The "N-word" is not in itself inherently BAD, but the adoption of it by people as a term of hate does make it a problematic usage.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

is also problematic.

At risk of us digressing into etymology, the process can work both ways. Nobody using the word sinister today is seeking to cast aspersions on left-handed people. I'd argue that the word idiot is not problematic any more than the word sinister.

 

[MickiQ]

What are the odds that the Tory election leaflets at the next GE will have the phrase "Stop The Boats" as every 5th sentence?

 

[ouirdeaux]

Not just found it out - I found it out while I was still using it, albeit some time after I started using it. FWIW, I can recall using "shekels", too, in similar ignorance of its origin. It's not the word itself - it's the intention behind it. The "N-word" is not in itself inherently BAD, but the adoption of it by people as a term of hate does make it a problematic usage.

Well, quite. I don't think anyone uses 'wonga' to be anti-Roma -- even if they are in fact anti-Roma, and might use it that way if they knew the origin. By contrast, some people do use 'shekels' in a problematic manner, which is why people probably shouldn't pick it as a neutral synonym for 'money' once they become aware that those people exist.

 

[Spymaster]

is also problematic.

I think we did that one some time ago, also moron.

Apparently there are degrees of how much offence it's ok to take on this here website!

 

[Spymaster]

At risk of us digressing into etymology, the process can work both ways. Nobody using the word sinister today is seeking to cast aspersions on left-handed people. I'd argue that the word idiot is not problematic any more than the word sinister.

What about moron?

 

[Dystopiary]

At risk of us digressing into etymology, the process can work both ways. Nobody using the word sinister today is seeking to cast aspersions on left-handed people. I'd argue that the word idiot is not problematic any more than the word sinister.

I get what you're saying, and there was a nasty association with left-handedness and "evil", but left-handed people aren't being kept in horrific conditions because of their left-handedness. People with intellectual disabilities are. Look at the Care in the UK for just some examples. There are many more. Left-handed people don't need to fear going out in case they're mocked, assaulted or worse because of their condition. People with intellectual disabilities are some of the most vulnerable people in society, yet very few people seem prepared to stick up for them.

"Ret**d" is rightly considered a slur, but not a gazillion other words that were and still are used to denegrate very vulnerable people. Maybe this is too far of a derail but it stands out to me that when talking about etymology it always seems acceptable to ignore words relating to certain disabled people.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Cruella admitting she knowingly acted unlawfully:

 

[existentialist]

Well, quite. I don't think anyone uses 'wonga' to be anti-Roma -- even if they are in fact anti-Roma, and might use it that way if they knew the origin. By contrast, some people do use 'shekels' in a problematic manner, which is why people probably shouldn't pick it as a neutral synonym for 'money' once they become aware that those people exist.

I disagree, to some extent.

I think it is important to not simply give up words because they are being (mis)appropriated by people with bad intent. In some cases (the "n-word") the battle is clearly lost, and attempting to put it back into some more neutral context is doomed. But I don't want words that I have happily used, and may continue to use, to be denied to me because a small but vocal minority have hijacked it.

Obviously, there's a certain amount of pragmatism involved, because you get to a point where you're like those old people saying "sigh, I used to be able to say 'gay' without meaning That Thing ".

 

[belboid]

is also problematic.

It really isn't tho, is it?

Just because it was used (not originated) as a pseudo-medical term that is now embarrassingly out of date doesn't mean it can't be used as an expression. If I'd written 'by someone with the mental age of a 3 - 7 year old' then that would be fine?

 

[existentialist]

What about moron?

Welsh for "carrot", since you ask...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What about moron?

Another word whose etymology I only discovered relatively recently. Again, the vast majority of people using the word won't know its origins and won't be using it in a 'technical' or pseudo-scientific way. I don't have a problem with it. 'Moronic' is a useful word imo. I know opinions on that vary.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I disagree, to some extent.

I think it is important to not simply give up words because they are being (mis)appropriated by people with bad intent. In some cases (the "n-word") the battle is clearly lost, and attempting to put it back into some more neutral context is doomed. But I don't want words that I have happily used, and may continue to use, to be denied to me because a small but vocal minority have hijacked it.

Obviously, there's a certain amount of pragmatism involved, because you get to a point where you're like those old people saying "sigh, I used to be able to say 'gay' without meaning That Thing ".

You're fighting a losing battle if you want to go against common usage, though. There are plenty of words around and we can always make new ones. If any word acquires an unpleasant connotation, I'll happily ditch it.

 

[klang]

I would not use Shekel when talking about money. I happily say Pesos, Pesetas, Marks, Rubel, etc. But Shekel doesn't sit right. Antisemitism and NWO-loonery have spoilt that one for me.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What are the odds that the Tory election leaflets at the next GE will have the phrase "Stop The Boats" as every 5th sentence?

Will Fareham be littered with posters stating, "I would love to have a front page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda, that’s my dream, it’s my obsession.” ?

 

[kebabking]

I disagree, to some extent.

I think it is important to not simply give up words because they are being (mis)appropriated by people with bad intent. In some cases (the "n-word") the battle is clearly lost, and attempting to put it back into some more neutral context is doomed. But I don't want words that I have happily used, and may continue to use, to be denied to me because a small but vocal minority have hijacked it.

Obviously, there's a certain amount of pragmatism involved, because you get to a point where you're like those old people saying "sigh, I used to be able to say 'gay' without meaning That Thing ".

This really - have we not learned that when you cede ground to bad actors they don't just sit there, they move to the next thing, and the next thing?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I get what you're saying, and there was a nasty association with left-handedness and "evil", but left-handed people aren't being kept in horrific conditions because of their left-handedness. People with intellectual disabilities are. Look at the Care in the UK for just some examples. There are many more. Left-handed people don't need to fear going out in case they're mocked, assaulted or worse because of their condition. People with intellectual disabilities are some of the most vulnerable people in society, yet very few people seem prepared to stick up for them.

"Ret**d" is rightly considered a slur, but not a gazillion other words that were and still are used to denegrate very vulnerable people. Maybe this is too far of a derail but it stands out to me that when talking about etymology it always seems acceptable to ignore words relating to certain disabled people.

Thing is, with terms like 'idiot' or 'moron', there isn't a group of people who would say 'hang on, don't say that, it applies to us and is derogatory' because their usage in medical circles is totally gone and I'd argue that the collective memory that they were ever used is virtually gone. I'd contrast it with the word 'retard', which very much still is in the collective memory as a pseudo-medical term.

 

[Dystopiary]

It really isn't tho, is it?

Just because it was used (not originated) as a pseudo-medical term that is now embarrassingly out of date doesn't mean it can't be used as an expression. If I'd written 'by someone with the mental age of a 3 - 7 year old' then that would be fine?

Many people clearly find it acceptable, but especially as long as those with intellectual disabilities are heavily mistreated - which they very much are - I think it's problematic. Same as the words "moron", "halfwit" and others of that ilk.

I used to use the word until fairly recently it was pointed out to me how problematic it is; now it's one I avoid. It's not a loss or anything.

So I'm not going to agree with you and I don't know what else to say.

 

[Dystopiary]

Thing is, with terms like 'idiot' or 'moron', there isn't a group of people who would say 'hang on, don't say that, it applies to us and is derogatory' because their usage in medical circles is totally gone and I'd argue that the collective memory that they were ever used is virtually gone.

You think people with intellectual disabilities don't have these words aimed at them all the time?