The Guardian's top 50 television dramas of all time

[Azrael]

Babylon 5 would definitely make my top 5. It's a shame that cheap sets and some clunky dialogue distracted from a tightly-plotted story that (so far as I know, any predecessors?) introduced the novel's structure to network TV. The muddle over renewal that led to a weak 5th season didn't help it, either.

JMS was also the first showrunner to use the net to communicate with his fans (and, credit to him, stuck with it right through the show's run, and beyond).

It's hardly known over in Britain thanks to the many unholy mysteries of Channel 4's scheduling. And they even got namechecked in one episode! Pft, there's gratitude for you.

 

[scifisam]

I'm not sure if I'm in the mood for debating Buffy for another day. Course, I am stuck at home - again - letting workmen in and out and moving stuff around for them and otherwise doing nothing at all - so I might change my mind.

 

[paolo]

well that depends. we obviously have different ideas about what is a film and what is a tv play or drama.
in tv's heyday, films tended to be filmed, and television was taped. people only tended to call them films if they were released theatrically.
the distinctions are getting blurred nowadays of course i grant you.

Scum was originally made for BBC's Play for Today slot.

It wasn't broadcast, and was then remade as a film.

It's all there to Google

 

[belboid]

I'm not sure if I'm in the mood for debating Buffy for another day. Course, I am stuck at home - again - letting workmen in and out and moving stuff around for them and otherwise doing nothing at all - so I might change my mind.

it's the old 'bore your opponent to death so you can claim 'victory' despite having been ripped a new one on every salient point made' tactic

 

[Azrael]

it's the old 'bore your opponent to death so you can claim 'victory' despite having been ripped a new one on every salient point made' tactic

Your one "salient" contribution has been to call me a misogynist, on the basis that I don't like misogyny. (Urban, packed with racists, according to belboid "logic".) Libellous raving for which you still owe me an apology, and which briefly turned a thread about TV shows nasty. Good going.

Either bow out, or do it properly. As you like.

 

[belboid]

Your one "salient" contribution has been to call me a misogynist, on the basis that I don't like misogyny. (Urban, packed with racists, according to belboid "logic".) Libellous raving for which you still owe me an apology, and which briefly turned a thread about TV shows nasty. Good going.

Either bow out, or do it properly. As you like.

oh do fuck off with your orders. you've been ripped apart with your stupid, borrowed from a first year undergraduate, 'theories' and are desperately trying to save face. you have failed.

And your ability to read common english is as bad as your ability to read moving pictures. Hopefully this post has been clear enough even for you

 

[kyser_soze]

Probably repeating what sfs has said, but the evil lesbian trope doesn't apply because the overall context of the series is Anyone Can Die (and does).

Q.E.D.

 

[Azrael]

oh do fuck off with your orders. you've been ripped apart with your stupid, borrowed from a first year undergraduate, 'theories' and are desperately trying to save face. you have failed.

And your ability to read common english is as bad as your ability to read moving pictures. Hopefully this post has been clear enough even for you

It's a cult TV show. About a teenage vampire slayer. Repeat until you calm down.

My only "order" has been a request for an apology for your nasty personal attack. You expect me to be pleased about it? I'm not especially bothered, because it's baseless rubbish you (half) picked up on from another poster. You wanna let it drop, I'll let it drop.

Whatever, don't wreck the thread over it. That's really all I've got to say.

 

[belboid]

good

 

[Azrael]

Probably repeating what sfs has said, but the evil lesbian trope doesn't apply because the overall context of the series is Anyone Can Die (and does).

Q.E.D.

Yeah, but the same could go for the "black guy dies first" trope from horror movies. Or the black sidekick who dies in action movies.

It was

Spoiler: Seeing Red

the particular circumstances of Tara dying over the bed she and Willow had just made love in, followed by Willow going evil

that got some people's heckles up. If the character had died in another way, say, in battle against the Big Bad, I doubt anything like the same fuss would've kicked off. Fans didn't get mad when [spoiler='Buffy' season five]Tara got brainsucked, and looked a gonner, back in season five[/spoiler] as the circumstances were different.

 

[kabbes]

I object to the claim that Willow turned "evil". It's such a Dungeons and Dragons word, for a start.

 

[belboid]

the different ending may just have had an effect there. peoplle who like specific characters get pissed off when they die, and come out with shite. the same 'logic' was employed by several idiots after the last series of Torchwood. Cos obviously Russel Davies is a homophobe too

 

[Santino]

I object to the claim that Willow turned "evil". It's such a Dungeons and Dragons word, for a start.

Would you prefer 'chaotic neutral'?

 

[kabbes]

Would you prefer 'chaotic neutral'?

On the grounds that "chaotic neutral" is less D&D than "evil" is?

 

[kyser_soze]

the different ending may just have had an effect there. peoplle who like specific characters get pissed off when they die, and come out with shite. the same 'logic' was employed by several idiots after the last series of Torchwood. Cos obviously Russel Davies is a homophobe too

Self-hating gay, apparently.

 

[belboid]

Self-hating gay, apparently.

duh, but of course, why didnt i see that??

 

[Santino]

On the grounds that "chaotic neutral" is less D&D than "evil" is?

Just be grateful for small mercies, is all I'm saying.

 

[Azrael]

Self-hating gay, apparently.

Yeah, but, so far as I know (don't watch Torchwood) there was no particular cliche Russel T Davies was playing into. A gay character just happened to die. Just like no one said it was a cliche when

Spoiler: major spoiler for 'The Wire' season two

D'Angelo Barksdale was murdered in lock-up.

 

[Azrael]

I object to the claim that Willow turned "evil". It's such a Dungeons and Dragons word, for a start.

BTVS is a fantasy series about demons, magic and vampires.

Would you prefer 'chaotic neutral'?

A TV troper!

 

[kabbes]

BTVS is a fantasy series about demons, magic and vampires.

Right -- and the vampires and demons were classically evil, in true D&D-stylee.

A person who cracks after their lover is killed in front of them, however, is not "evil". In the wrong, yes. But to call them "evil" is WAY too reductionist.

 

[Azrael]

Right -- and the vampires and demons were classically evil, in true D&D-stylee.

A person who cracks after their lover is killed in front of them, however, is not "evil". In the wrong, yes. But to call them "evil" is WAY too reductionist.

If Willow had just cracked, yep, I agree.

[spoiler="Villains", I think]But she got hopped up on dark magics. There's that cool shot where she puts her hands on the books, and the text spirals up her arms. And black eyes, leather, and general "veiny" apperance.

XANDER: I'm not joking. I know you're in pain. I can't imagine the pain you're in. And I know you're about to do something apocalyptically (glancing back at the statue) evil and stupid, and hey. (spreading out his arms) I still want to hang. You're Willow. (Grave)[/spoiler]

 

[Santino]

A TV troper!

Do what?

 

[DotCommunist]

alternate universe vampire willow is much hotter than evil willow.

To bring the discussion down afew notches

 

[The Octagon]

Right -- and the vampires and demons were classically evil, in true D&D-stylee.

A person who cracks after their lover is killed in front of them, however, is not "evil". In the wrong, yes. But to call them "evil" is WAY too reductionist.

Whilst I kind of agree, she didn't just 'crack' and go off the rails -

Spoiler: S6 ending

She was consumed by dark magics (yeah, i included the s at the end of magic ), murdered 2 people, then attempted to kill her friends and finally decided to end the world using a satanic temple

I think 'temporarily evil', or 'evil on the grounds of diminished responsibility' is fair enough.

EDIT - Bugger, too slow.

 

[kabbes]

Meh, it just reminds me of the tabloid's desperation to label anybody that does anything unpleasant as "evil", which is a convenient way to distance themselves from the "Evil Monster" and deny all responsibility for the society that helped to create that evil.

I realise that's a little bit over the top for a comment about Evil Willow, but feel we passed the OTT threshold about Buffy many MANY pages ago, so what the hey.

 

[The Octagon]

alternate universe vampire willow is much hotter than evil willow.

To bring the discussion down a few notches

Indeed, in fact all the characters were more attractive when 'bad' -

Faith - nuff said
Buffy's teasing dance at the start of S2
Xander's 'pack animal' nastiness
Giles letting Ripper out of the box at the end of S5

And of course Angelus (leather trousers, second-hand smoking from a hooker's neck) and Spike (S2 and a bit of S4).

 

[Azrael]

alternate universe vampire willow is much hotter than evil willow.

To bring the discussion down afew notches

Agreed.

 

[Azrael]

Meh, it just reminds me of the tabloid's desperation to label anybody that does anything unpleasant as "evil", which is a convenient way to distance themselves from the "Evil Monster" and deny all responsibility for the society that helped to create that evil.

I realise that's a little bit over the top for a comment about Evil Willow, but feel we passed the OTT threshold about Buffy many MANY pages ago, so what the hey.

The dark magic stuff gave the writers a good helping of deniability.

Spoiler: BTVS, S6, again

"Yeah, there's the double-murder, and the torture, and the attempted-genocide's a sticker. But hey, dark magic!

 

[Louloubelle]

Clavdivs hasn't aged well at all. It's not just the Afternoon Theatre sets, the acting looks stilted and hammy to these eyes nowadays.

I couldn't disagree more

I watched it all again last year and it was as gripping now as it was back then and the performances were wonderful. Special props to Derek Jacoby, Sian Phillips and John Hurt who were ALL magnificent IMO.

The Sopranos screenplay writers were inspired by I Claudius and it was the foundation for a lot of the character development and relationships.

I am pleased that the list include A Very Peculiar Practice as it was pretty obscure but groundbreaking and very funny

 

[Azrael]

One of the Rome directors mentioned this on a DVD commentary. Couldn't praise I, Claudius enough for plot and performance, but added something like, "On Rome, we decided not to follow them by lighting every scene with 1,000 watt lights."