The Guardian's top 50 television dramas of all time

[scifisam]

I doubt anyone but Azriel's going to read my long post above, but have a look at this part of the TV Tropes definition he linked to:

Please note that sometimes gay characters die in fiction because in fiction sometimes people die (this is particularly true of soldiers at war, where Sitch Sexuality and Anyone Can Die are both common tropes); this isn't an if-then correlation, and it's not always meant to "teach us something" or indicative of some prejudice on the part of the creator. The problem isn't when gay characters are killed off: the problem is when gay characters are killed off far more often than straight characters, or when they're killed off because they are gay. This trope therefore won't apply to a series where Anyone Can Die (and does).

I apologise for repeating the link to TV Tropes. I know this will mean many of you lose several hours there.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

6 to 16 days to download buffy.

 

[belboid]

I doubt anyone but Azriel's going to read my long post above

I've read and enjoyed all your contributions, they've been tops.

Thanks

 

[belboid]

6 to 16 days to download buffy.

which means you can download season one (which is only half the length of the others) overnight and then the rest while you're watching that one.

 

[colbhoy]

First impressions: This Life and Band of Brothers should both be considerably higher, they would be in my top 5. Can't argue with where Brideshead Revisted or Our Friends in the North are placed though.

 

[Orang Utan]

no threads or made in england or holding on or scum

 

[Agent Sparrow]

which means you can download season one (which is only half the length of the others) overnight and then the rest while you're watching that one.

Streaming is my friend.

I don't think Crispy is that impressed though...

 

[Nanker Phelge]

no threads or made in england or holding on or scum

I think Holding On should be in there too. Great writing and acting.

 

[Orang Utan]

i haven't read the thread as it's too long, but was there much comment about brideshead revisited?
i have neither read the book nor seen it on the telly, so can't comment on its high placement, but the idea of watching brideshead and other programmes of its ilk fills me with revulsion. maybe there's some kind of natural atavistic antipathy to posh people with teddies and blazers in vast houses. i know i'm never goint to like them. there are more recent examples such as line of beauty. and poliakoff. don't get me started on him.

 

[paolo]

no threads or made in england or holding on or scum

Does the Guardian's list include films? If not, there's your answer.

 

[Orang Utan]

Does the Guardian's list include films? If not, there's your answer.

they were all television dramas. and the words 'television drama' feature strongly in the title of the list.
do they mean tv drama serials then?

 

[Reno]

Yes tv drama series, but the way they titled it is a bit misleading.

 

[Orang Utan]

cops should have had a look in

 

[paolo]

they were all television dramas. and the words 'television drama' feature strongly in the title of the list.
do they mean tv drama serials then?

They don't mean films, no.

Films are films. They remain films regardless of transmission medium.

 

[Orang Utan]

Yes tv drama series, but the way they titled it is a bit misleading.

it looks like a mixture of long running series like west wing and sopranos and mini-series such as our friends in the north and oranges are not the only fruit, yet it leaves out stand alone dramas such as threads and scum.
it's very dissatisfying. how can you compare something a family saga like the sopranos or a soap like eastenders with a 4 part drama about a specific character or event such as monocled mutineer or talking heads?

 

[Nanker Phelge]

cops should have had a look in

Good call.

 

[Orang Utan]

They don't mean films, no.

Films are films. They remain films regardless of transmission medium.

films are shown in cinemas - these were broadcast first on television

 

[Orang Utan]

Good call.

i've only seen 3 programmes that had believable cops in them. cops, red riding and the young ones.

 

[paolo]

films are shown in cinemas - these were broadcast first on television

What you are saying is that there is no such thing as a film made for television. ??

 

[Nanker Phelge]

how can you compare something a family saga like the sopranos or a soap like eastenders with a 4 part drama about a specific character or event such as monocled mutineer or talking heads?

You can measure them in terms of quality - writing, acting etc.

For me the Sopranos was the best thing ever on TV, yet I hate how a drama like Holding On was pratically ignored when it was aired, receives little praise, yet delivered fantastic drama written by Tony Marchant featuring some fucking fantastic actors.

Deadwood's not in there, and for the writing alone that deserves to be top 10.

Births Marriages and Deaths, Auf Weidersehn, Tough Love, Lenny Blue, Fox, Our Boy?

Ray Winstone was in all of those - he should have a list of his own - and he turned down the Wire!

Ray as McNulty - that would have been a very different show! (if for no other reason than he does a shit yank accent!)

 

[Reno]

What you are saying is that there is no such thing as a film made for television. ??

Do you enjoy arguing about something pointless for the sake of it.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

arguing about something pointless for the sake of it.

Is that not the point of Urban75's existence?

 

[Orang Utan]

What you are saying is that there is no such thing as a film made for television. ??

well that depends. we obviously have different ideas about what is a film and what is a tv play or drama.
in tv's heyday, films tended to be filmed, and television was taped. people only tended to call them films if they were released theatrically.
the distinctions are getting blurred nowadays of course i grant you.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

well that depends. we obviously have different ideas about what is a film and what is a tv play or drama.
in tv's heyday, films tended to be filmed, and television was taped. people only tended to call them films if they were released theatrically.
the distinctions are getting blurred nowadays of course i grant you.

This is true - the BBC would never have made (called it) a TV film, it would have always been a TV Play/Drama - Scum, Nuts in May, Abigail's Party.

They still make these - Curse of Steptoe...(and the others in the series).

 

[Azrael]

Below be discussion of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Other Top 50 TV Show discussion, as you were.

But it doesn't back up that point. It goes against it. They're not crazed fans and they disagree with the 'OMG a lezbian dyed in BtVS their such haterz ov gayz n girlz' theory.

But that summary's a straw man (and in text speak, to boot!). No one says the BTVS staff are heterz ov gayz. They say they got sloppy and inadvertently used a negative cliché. Different things, no?

I am. I'm criticising what she wrote and commenting on one of the outcomes of such writing. If I'd said she was a stupid misandristic self-obsessed bore who's got her head so far up her own arse that she can indulge in navel-gazing from the inside, then that would be making it personal. But I think that'd be a bit much to get from one stupid essay.

Well, yeah, it would (like the navel gazing from the inside comment, BTW ).

So ... he wasn't actually punishing her and, er, he was wrong.

No, the character wasn't deliberately punishing Buffy. The writers were (inadvertently, I think). Add in the endless guilt trips the Buffy character went through over Riley (including a Xander Harris judgement speech, TM, when Riley left) and its not a good combination.

I bet you wouldn't discount that character if she fitted your theory.

I didn't discount Sam, but she's there for all of one ep, and has never been seen before. Tough fighter as she is, she can't fight, single handed, a dynamic that's been running the entire season.

[A female character going tonto] only has unfortunate implications if such behaviour is unique in the show.

Not so, the problem lies in the behaviour in the context of the season six arc.

If you think Buffy coped well with Joyce not being around any more, then you must have missed the fact that the situation left Buffy having to support herself and Dawn financially as well as look after Dawn. That was the reason she had to quit college and work all those terrible jobs. It was the absence of a woman, not a man, that caused those problems. Giles helped somewhat with Dawn, but not as much as you might have expected, and he never supported them financially. He felt useless - he had little of use to do any more.

Yeah, it was odd that Giles never offered to help financially. Or that no one demanded a stipend off the (tamed) Watchers Council. Armies feed and cloth their soldiers (and sometimes given them functioning rifles ). It was evidence of clunky writing. Buffy had to suffer, so the writers made her suffer, ignoring character dynamics. (And Willow and Tara lived at Buffy's house rent-free for months. Right.) Buffy only fell apart after

Spoiler: After Life

she vacationed in heaven for a summer.

And you're right, Joyce was a strong female character. I've never claimed some dastardly (mwwhaahaa) series-long agenda on the part of the BTVS writers. My criticism's been confined to season six, when events came together to create an unfortunate picture. Some, like Anthony Stewart Head wanting a smaller role, were beyond the writers' control. Most weren't.

His departure is supposed to unsettle everyone somewhat - that's not implied, it's overt. Season six was about growing up. That includes separating from your parents even if your independence is difficult to begin with. Giles was the father figure. He left, they got unsettled.

Yep, this is what the writers were going for. They just ignored any other implications of their chosen direction while they made the characters suffer, suffer, suffer!

Real life was a mixed bag, but in Buffy season six, everyone gets dumped on, hard. It's not realistic, as its fans claim: it's just the flipside of happy lollypop world. Buffy always balanced joy and pain before then. Besides, "real life" had been the enemy since day one. It's a weak rationale for what played out.

Tara being the only one who kept it together is simply laughable. There were other female characters who were doing better than her (even Anya and Dawn) and Tara was never written to be an overly confident, independent character in the first place. Funnily enough, I guess you could see that as a negative portrayal, but nobody ever mentions it.

What's laughable about it? Despite not being a naturally confident person, [spoiler='Buffy' season six]Tara leaves Willow when the writers make magic a narcotic, stands up for her ex without enabling her, remains a friend to Dawn, needles Spike, and supports Buffy without judging her. Meanwhile, Anya has to become a demon without the mighty Xander Harris (pffft) to hold her hand, and Dawn turns into a self-pitying kleptomaniac, a trait the writers shoehorned into the character to create interest, since Dawn's reason for existing was over by the end of "The Gift". She steals stuff! She hurts! Bow to the depth, 'cause the hand ain't listening! Tara's the one regular who doesn't become cipher.[/spoiler]
Really, what more could Tara have done? Do female characters have to fit some confident and independent template to be considered strong? There are different kinds of strength, surely? Besides [spoiler='Buffy' season five, "Family"]Tara went to college on her own, to escape an abusive family; and then left Willow when her girlfriend betrayed her; along with Buffy, she was one of the most independent characters on the show.[/spoiler]

But again, if you reckoned that one of the lesbian characters was stronger than the rest, that would be evidence of positive characterisation, not negative. You keep arguing against yourself.

Yep, it was positive characterisation. And not because Tara was a Token Minority. Then it was all undone

Spoiler: Seeing Red

by having a nutjob who seemed to have declared war on womenkind gunning her down. There's one strong female regular in season six, and she gets killed. By a one-note misogynist. Inadvertent message: women, know your limits, or the plot gods strike you down.

So in the way events play out, Tara's strong characterisation helps my argument.

Bored now !

This world's no fun anymore.

These are rather schematic attitudes to gay representations in film and TV as laid out in Vito Russo's 70s book Celluloid Closet. At that time representations of gay men and women where mostly derogatory and then his views were groundbreaking. Now we have a wide variety of different representations of characters and sometimes they won't be "positive role models" and these character won't always be saints or ride off into the sunset (though despite her transgressions Willow is ultimately allowed a happy ending)

Except I never argued that any gay character should be a paragon, or a "positive role model". Not once. Neither did fans of Willow and Tara. [spoiler='Buffy' season six]How much less of a paragon can Willow get than mind-raping her girlfriend, getting hopped up on a magic bong, and breaking Dawn's arm in a car wreck?[/spoiler] With regard to gay characters, I've simply been arguing that events in "Seeing Red" fit a negative cliché. (One that any Babylon 5 fans out there should recognise on sight.) If an argument needs to use a straw man, it can't be that strong!

[spoiler='Buffy' season seven, "Chosen"]Yep, Willow gets a happy ending of sorts -- she's shoehorned into a relationship to avoid another cliché, but does leave the show alive, intact and with a girlfriend. That's season seven. My criticism's been confined to season six. (Season seven is a mess, but for different reasons.)[/spoiler]
Talking about representation, Willow and Tara were the first long-running lesbian couple on American network TV. At the time, regular, believable lesbian characters hadn't even reached minority sidekick status. They were just invisible. (And how much better is it today?)

 

[Azrael]

First impressions: This Life and Band of Brothers should both be considerably higher, they would be in my top 5. Can't argue Bill Guarneawith where Brideshead Revisted or Our Friends in the North are placed though.

I'd probably put Band of Brothers in my top five, or close to it. Fine production values and performances, and best of all, it follows Stephen Ambrose's book pretty darn closely, smashing through TV tropes and cliches in the process.

[Spoiler='BoB', "The Breaking Point"]Most war movies kill anonymous extras, or allow the leads to die in the Heroic Showdown at the end. In Band of Brothers, Bill Guarnere's one of the strongest characters for the first six episodes, and then gets his leg blown off helping another strong character who's just been maimed in the same fashion, and disappears from the series.[/spoiler]

 

[mauvais]

Das Boot was the best TV series I ever saw. I know it's a film but it worked far better split into a serial.

 

[Azrael]

Das Boot was the best TV series I ever saw. I know it's a film but it worked far better split into a serial.

Oh how did I miss that.

Not sure which version of Das Boot I prefer (I've not seen the series since the BBC2 showing in the mid-90s), although the serial would probably come out on top. The few flaws (making all but one of the U-boat crew non-Nazi) are forgivable in the circumstances in which it was made, and the drama that arises from the prolonged claustrophobia is hard to match. And of course, there's the suckerpunch ending.

If the Guardian made a point of confining the list to English-language series, it'd be an understandable omission. If they're including foreign-language TV, the Heimat trilogy is an obvious contender. As is the French Engrenages (loosely translated as "Spiral" by BBC4).

 

[Reno]

If we add foreign language series then I would go for Heimat, the German series that followed two generations of a family through the major events of the 20th century and the haunted hospital series Riget aka The Kingdom, the best thing Lars Von Trier has ever done.

 

[kabbes]

For me it would be:

1) Columbo
2) Buffy
3) Babylon 5

And that's probably it. I watched some Sopranos, 24, NYPD Blue, Lost and so on (never The Wire) but never really liked any of them enough to justify including them in a list.