The Guardian's top 50 television dramas of all time

[kyser_soze]

The vampire boyfriend who said 'If you shag me, I'll become a monster. So don't shag me. Whatever you do, don't shag me.'

Spoiler: buffy

And Willow totally trades up with Kennedy too. Tara was a bit Clannad for me - I expect she smelled of patchouli oil or something. Kennedy was hot, confident and did I say hot? Yeah, Willow traded up there, for sure

 

[The Octagon]

The vampire boyfriend who said 'If you shag me, I'll become a monster. So don't shag me. Whatever you do, don't shag me.'

I'm afraid I must geek-out again and point out that it wasn't until said shagging that Angel realised how the curse worked.

The gypsys only told him he would remember all his victims and his soul would torment him, they didn't tell him about the loophole.

Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case ignore me.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Damn it. You're all making me want to finally get round to watching Buffy, but a) I don't know how to download so I have to wait until bf gets back, and b) I've been reading the posts so now I know numerous important things which are going to happen!*

*blaming self for this btw, not anyone on thread.

 

[kyser_soze]

Sarcasm.

 

[The Octagon]

Damn it. You're all making me want to finally get round to watching Buffy, but a) I don't know how to download so I have to wait until bf gets back, and b) I've been reading the posts so now I know numerous important things which are going to happen!*

*blaming self for this btw, not anyone on thread.

We did get a bit spoiler happy, sorry.

Perhaps a warning could be affixed - Beware! Lots of sad people debating Buffy plot points within...

 

[The Octagon]

Sarcasm.

 

[Azrael]

it should have been in this list, considering some of the crap that's on it

True, that.

But Buffy's far superior.[/COLOR]

True, that.

(Although I think the Moff could give it a run. We'll see come March/April.)

You're not getting me. Having a lesbian character turn evil isn't that significant in a show that has loads of evil characters, including some who were formerly good. It'd be like complaining that a gay male character in Ugly Betty was working in the fashion industry even though the entire show is about the fashion industry.

Or that the Wire was racist.

It's not that

Spoiler: Buffy season six

Willow turned evil, but the specific way she did in "Villains". The Willow/Tara fans had no problem with her evil actions early in season, including mind-rape, betrayal, "magic abuse", getting Dawn into a car wreck, the works. Or if they did, they didn't accuse Mutant Enemy of using homophobic clichés.

If Detective McNulty had a loyal black sidekick who was always wisecracking and got gunned down by Barksdale to "make it personal", wouldn't fans have a point about it being a cliché?

In those shows, the black character dies while the white characters live.

Or they die first, the horror movie version of the trope.

What other choice did she have, then?

Without going all fanfic, she could've stuck Xanda and Dawn on a bus outa town. Didn't Anya have superpowers again at this point? Have her teleport Dawn to Giles' place in Englad. Or, well, pretty much anything besides

Spoiler: Villains

sending her off to spend quality time with a demon who'd just tried to rape her.

You've selected only stuff about Willow and Tara and then only some of the aspects of that that fit your theory. That's missing out a fair few plots in the series.

Which theory's this? The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché specifically applies to a certain couple in a certain episode, so of course I selected them for that. The general ugly implications, well, I picked several strands (the choice of villain, Buffy's relationship, Riley coming back into town, etc).

We have different definitions of frothing psychopath, then. Mine means someone who is over the top, energetic, excitable, crazy in ways humans normally aren't crazy - not disorganised and a bit nuts.

Warren

Spoiler: Dead Things

used some mind control dohickey to try and rape his ex

. That's not like your average bear!

 

[kyser_soze]

Damn it. You're all making me want to finally get round to watching Buffy, but a) I don't know how to download so I have to wait until bf gets back, and b) I've been reading the posts so now I know numerous important things which are going to happen!*

*blaming self for this btw, not anyone on thread.

I has them all on avi, burned onto DVD if you want?

I blame the sucky spoiler code and it's insistence on spoiler=...for the open tag...grrr...

 

[Azrael]

I blame the sucky spoiler code and it's insistence on spoiler=...for the open tag...grrr...

And the string of edits in my posts.

 

[scifisam]

It's not that

Spoiler: Buffy season six

Willow turned evil, but the specific way she did in "Villains". The Willow/Tara fans had no problem with her evil actions early in season, including mind-rape, betrayal, "magic abuse", getting Dawn into a car wreck, the works. Or if they did, they didn't accuse Mutant Enemy of using homophobic clichés.

If Detective McNulty had a loyal black sidekick who was always wisecracking and got gunned down by Barksdale to "make it personal", wouldn't fans have a point about it being a cliché?

It's only that website that's claiming this is the trope, but not a single one of the examples they give actually has, as they claim

Spoiler

a lesbian character dying and her partner turning evil as a result

.

It's not a cliche if it only happens in one show.

And trust me, the same people were going on and on very instance of Willow being bad or W&T' relationship being imperfect. I'm a lesbian science fiction fan and I was well into the fandom at that time. Trust me, I know what people were saying.

Or they die first, the horror movie version of the trope.

Yup ... And did that happen to Willow? Nope.

Without going all fanfic, she could've stuck Xanda and Dawn on a bus outa town. Didn't Anya have superpowers again at this point? Have her teleport Dawn to Giles' place in Englad. Or, well, pretty much anything besides

Spoiler: Villains

sending her off to spend quality time with a demon who'd just tried to rape her.

I think you need to rewatch the episodes if you think those were possibilities. Go on, you know you want an excuse for another viewing.

Which theory's this? The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché specifically applies to a certain couple in a certain episode, so of course I selected them for that. The general ugly implications, well, I picked several strands (the choice of villain, Buffy's relationship, Riley coming back into town, etc).

You never mentioned those before. Riley coming back to town is misogynist? Huh? How? Buffy's relationship is fucked up, but she's not the only one getting beaten up there, is she? You're digging desperately now.

Warren

Spoiler: Dead Things

used some mind control dohickey to try and rape his ex

. That's not like your average bear!

Of course Warren acts differently to normal people. He's a baddie. What do you expect, a baddie who does nothing bad? But he's nowhere near the levels of the other baddies, who generally wanted to either destroy or enslave the world.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

We did get a bit spoiler happy, sorry.

As I said, it's my own fault for reading it! You're all making it look really interesting though.

I has them all on avi, burned onto DVD if you want?

Ooo, very tempting. Particularly as I'm unemployed at the moment... Maybe this would be a bad idea.

 

[Azrael]

It's only that website that's claiming this is the trope, but not a single one of the examples they give actually has, as they claim

This series sum-up from afterellen notes the same thing. The writer doesn't even agree that "Seeing Red" fits, but admits it could've been handled better.

(Link to pdf)

This has some more on the cliché.

You never mentioned those before. Riley coming back to town is misogynist? Huh? How? Buffy's relationship is fucked up, but she's not the only one getting beaten up there, is she? You're digging desperately now.

Mentioned Captain Cardboard pages back. And of course his return isn't misogynistic in isolation. Combined with the trashing of Buffy's character, however, it's unfortunate. Roughly summed up: Buffy's life falls apart without a strong man, said man comes back into town and shows her the light about her current skank of a boyfriend, all the while punishing her for not choosing him.

Spoiler: various season 5 eps

Yeah, after he offered himself up as chow in a vampire crack den.

Ick, ick, ick. Feminist studies could have hours of fun with this, and rightly so.

If you think I expect female characters to be some kind of paragon, you're way off base. None of them on Buffy ever has been. Faith was clearly a damaged person in season three, but believably so, and a great character. By contrast, the writers just kept putting the boot into Buffy until she curled up. (Literally, see "Normal, Again".)

Of course Warren acts differently to normal people. He's a baddie. What do you expect, a baddie who does nothing bad? But he's nowhere near the levels of the other baddies, who generally wanted to either destroy or enslave the world.

Well no, he's portrayed as a feeble hack. I just noted that he's a one-note creation, and not playing with a full deck.

 

[belboid]

By contrast, the writers just kept putting the boot into Buffy until she curled up. (Literally, see "Normal, Again".)

where's that hitting your head against a brick wall smilie? The above statement is Azrael missing the point by about 18,000 miles. Normal Again was the supreme episode of that series that showed precisely why Az is wrong (in general, there obvioulsy aint much 'evil lesbian' nonsense in there. Not that there is any in the rest of the season either)

 

[Azrael]

where's that hitting your head against a brick wall smilie? The above statement is Azrael missing the point by about 18,000 miles. Normal Again was the supreme episode of that series that showed precisely why Az is wrong (in general, there obvioulsy aint much 'evil lesbian' nonsense in there. Not that there is any in the rest of the season either)

You seem to have trouble separating intention and execution. But then, you think a dislike of misogyny is evidence of, erm, misogyny, so little wonder you're confused.

"Norma Again" is mostly about having fun with the fourth wall, which works well, but manages to reduce Buffy's dignity still further in the process. The "believe in yourself" coda doesn't undo that. (And of course, there's that final shot.)

 

[belboid]

You seem to have trouble separating intention and execution. But then, you think a dislike of misogyny is evidence of, erm, misogyny, so little wonder you're confused.

actually it was thinkng that complaining about misogyny that clearly isnt there (and you have been so totally pwnd on this, your humungous contradictions and ill thought out theories shredded) is a pisspoor attempt at cover up. Not dis-similar from secretly gay men who take part in homophobic attacks.

"Norma Again" is mostly about having fun with the fourth wall, which works well, but manages to reduce Buffy's dignity still further in the process. The "believe in yourself" coda doesn't undo that. (And of course, there's that final shot.)

I do like the idea of it being Norma Again. Buffy as Marilyn Monroe would be fun

I dln't think it reduces Buffy's dignity at all, and what it doeds is explain to the audience nicely why a pathetic character like Warren is, in so many ways, the biggest and most real enemey she will face.

Obviously if one thinks the show is all about vampires and werewolves and shit then you wnt like that episode.


And, on an almost totally unconnected point, even if S6 was misogynistic I'd still love it, just for the way Willow says 'bored now' in the penultimate (?)episode.

 

[Azrael]

actually it was thinkng that complaining about misogyny that clearly isnt there (and you have been so totally pwnd on this, your humungous contradictions and ill thought out theories shredded) is a pisspoor attempt at cover up. Not dis-similar from secretly gay men who take part in homophobic attacks.

Yawn. More cod-psych down a phoneline. It's show, don't tell.

I dln't think it reduces Buffy's dignity at all, and what it doeds is explain to the audience nicely why a pathetic character like Warren is, in so many ways, the biggest and most real enemey she will face.

Obviously if one thinks the show is all about vampires and werewolves and shit then you wnt like that episode.

The clue's in the title.

And, on an almost totally unconnected point, even if S6 was misogynistic I'd still love it, just for the way Willow says 'bored now' in the penultimate (?)episode.

So you'd excuse misogyny because a character says a cool line. Well sod me, if I was prone to long-distance diagnosis ...

 

[scifisam]

This series sum-up from afterellen notes the same thing. The writer doesn't even agree that "Seeing Red" fits, but admits it could've been handled better.

(Link to pdf)

But they're not using the same definition as the other site you cited, and they don't agree with it:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many fans felt that killing Tara off and subsequently turning Willow evil reinforced the dead/evil lesbian cliche to such a degree that it canceled out all other positive contributions the show made to lesbian visibility. I disagree, because I believe the Buffy writers were treating Tara just like the other characters on the show (since main characters frequently die on Buffy, as Anya did in the finale). But nonetheless, they should have thought through Tara's murder a little better, and perhaps handled that storyline differently, even if Tara still ultimately had to die to drive Willow's character development. [/FONT]

The last line is consiliatory to those who rant on and on about how homophobic it is to kill a lesbian character no matter the series. The rest says exactly what I've been saying.

This

has some more on the cliché.

Good God. That's some of the worst supposedly academic writing I've ever seen. It starts with the supposition that Willow was linking lesbianism with evil. All this based on two sentences that she uttered in an episode. Except that that pdf writes them down as one sentence, not two uttered a few seconds apart in a completely different tone of voice. That writer is trying really, really really hard to see homophobia wherever she turns.

Well done her - contributing to the stereotype of the oversensitive lesbian at the same time as discouraging writers from writing interesting storyline for gay characters. I hope she's proud.

Mentioned Captain Cardboard pages back. And of course his return isn't misogynistic in isolation. Combined with the trashing of Buffy's character, however, it's unfortunate. Roughly summed up: Buffy's life falls apart without a strong man, said man comes back into town and shows her the light about her current skank of a boyfriend, all the while punishing her for not choosing him.

Her life falling apart has nothing to do with Riley. He doesn't show her the 'light of day.' He doesn't punish her for not choosing him; they talk about their break up, but there's no punishment involved. His new wife is a human woman who's an awesome fighter - does that fit the misogynist theory?

Well done for taking an example of a straight relationship that went wrong, and a straight lover who turned (somewhat) bad, and using it to back up the idea that Willow and Tara going wrong and then Willow going bad is somehow unique.

 

[DotCommunist]

And, on an almost totally unconnected point, even if S6 was misogynistic I'd still love it, just for the way Willow says 'bored now' in the penultimate (?)episode.

A line echoed by Spike when he turns up in Torchwood. Ah now those two episodes were geek heaven.

 

[Azrael]

Or how about

Spoiler: all of 'Buffy' season six

Buffy, Willow and Dawn falling to pieces once father figure Giles leaves town, and relying on him to be their saviour in the season finale.

Or the one female character who keeps her independence, dignity and self-respect being gunned down by a self-declared misogynist sociopath.

Or (and this is a doozey) the one remaining human man, who's proved himself to be a feckless waste of space by dumping his bride at the altar, gets to save the genocidal lesbian from herself and be the hero of the hour, thanks to a speech about a crayon, and the "good magic" cure the father figure gave his wayward surrogate daughter.

I can feel the empowerment from here!

 

[scifisam]

Woah. I just went to edit the coding and the post coding's bizarre. I'll leave it as it is.

 

[scifisam]

Spoiler

Having the father figure leave does contribute to their problems. The show's about growing up, and being emancipated from your parents is part of that. However, Joyce's death has much more of an impact than Giles' departure.

One female character who keeps her independence, dignity and self-respect? What, Tara? You've got to be kidding me. But, if you're saying that Tara has her independence and so on and the others don't, then surely that's saying that a lesbian character was a stronger personality than all the straight characters, and, you know, I don't think that could be called homophobic.

Yes, Xander is the one who saves the world this time. This was after a constant refrain of how useless and powerless he is compared to the rest of them. He saves the world by being a good guy and a good friend, not by being a strong prince rescuing the damsel in distress.

Do you think NONE of the male characters should ever do anything good? Is a male character being useful evidence of misogyny?

 

[Azrael]

But they're not using the same definition as the other site you cited, and they don't agree with it:

Well yeah, I know, that's why I posted it, and pointed out that she didn't agree with it. I was pointing out that it isn't just crazed fans who see there's something in it.

Good God. That's some of the worst supposedly academic writing I've ever seen. It starts with the supposition that Willow was linking lesbianism with evil. All this based on two sentences that she uttered in an episode. Except that that pdf writes them down as one sentence, not two uttered a few seconds apart in a completely different tone of voice. That writer is trying really, really really hard to see homophobia wherever she turns.

Well done her - contributing to the stereotype of the oversensitive lesbian at the same time as discouraging writers from writing interesting storyline for gay characters. I hope she's proud.

Whatever happened to play the ball, not the woman?

Her life falling apart has nothing to do with Riley. He doesn't show her the 'light of day.' He doesn't punish her for not choosing him; they talk about their break up, but there's no punishment involved.

Riley reveals to Buffy that

Spoiler: Captain Cardboard's return

Spike's up to some madcap evil scheme, and while not deliberately punishing her, makes Buffy feel miserable for not choosing him.

His new wife is a human woman who's an awesome fighter - does that fit the misogynist theory?

If I were reaching, I could claim that they imply a woman can only be strong with the help of a man, but honestly, it doesn't fit, because the writers never intended misogyny. There's not some calculated plan running through the season. Difference is, the new character is there for one episode, and it's Buffy we've watched demeaned week after week.

Well done for taking an example of a straight relationship that went wrong, and a straight lover who turned (somewhat) bad, and using it to back up the idea that Willow and Tara going wrong and then Willow going bad is somehow unique.

I never said Willow going bad was unique.

Spoiler: end of season six

I said her going batshit crazy and trying to exterminate the human race over the death of her gay lover had unfortunate implications.

 

[kabbes]

You simply MUST watch it, Sparra. Forget 22nd best drama -- it's easily top 5, as others have already said.

 

[Azrael]

Spoiler

Having the father figure leave does contribute to their problems. The show's about growing up, and being emancipated from your parents is part of that. However, Joyce's death has much more of an impact than Giles' departure.

One female character who keeps her independence, dignity and self-respect? What, Tara? You've got to be kidding me. But, if you're saying that Tara has her independence and so on and the others don't, then surely that's saying that a lesbian character was a stronger personality than all the straight characters, and, you know, I don't think that could be called homophobic.

Yes, Xander is the one who saves the world this time. This was after a constant refrain of how useless and powerless he is compared to the rest of them. He saves the world by being a good guy and a good friend, not by being a strong prince rescuing the damsel in distress.

Do you think NONE of the male characters should ever do anything good? Is a male character being useful evidence of misogyny?

Spoiler: all 'Buffy' season six

Difference is, Buffy copes remarkably well after Joyce's death, as do Willow and the rest. Dawn, not so well, but who'd expect her to.
When Giles goes, everyone falls to pieces, except Tara, who gets gunned down by a one-note woman hater.

Do I think this is intentional? Not for a second. Buffy fell to bits when Giles left because she'd got yanked out of heaven. But the implication is there, all the same, and any decent writer would've spotted it.

Yep, Tara keeps it together. She leaves the woman she loves, despite the pain, because Willow's betrayed her after a final warning. She's hurting, but she doesn't become dependent on a demon. She stands up for Willow to Anya, and is Buffy's confidant. And yep, this isn't a cliché at all. Never said it was. That's why the cheap stunt-shooting is so egregious.

And of course a male character doing good isn't evidence of misogyny. It's the combination of events that's unfortunate. Xander gets to be a bride-dumping waste of skin, but hey, when time comes, a man steps up! He's Joss's proxy, so he gets a free pass, but even so …

Again, none of this is intentional. It's a symptom of poorly thought-out writing.

 

[Azrael]

And for those doubting the much-discussed cliche, I direct your attention here.

 

[starfish2000]

Theyve over egged the British Element with soaps and stuff Guardian readers approve of to detract from the fact television drama is fucked in this country.

 

[Azrael]

Theyve over egged the British Element with soaps and stuff Guardian readers approve of to detract from the fact television drama is fucked in this country.

Do Guardian readers approve of soaps, as a rule?

Poll!

 

[Idris2002]

Guys, guys, you're spoiling the magic.

 

[Reno]

And for those doubting the much-discussed cliche, I direct your attention here.

Bored now !

These are rather schematic attitudes to gay representations in film and TV as laid out in Vito Russo's 70s book Celluloid Closet. At that time representations of gay men and women where mostly derogatory and then his views were groundbreaking. Now we have a wide variety of different representations of characters and sometimes they won't be "positive role models" and these character won't always be saints or ride off into the sunset (though despite her transgressions Willow is ultimately allowed a happy ending)

 

[scifisam]

Well yeah, I know, that's why I posted it, and pointed out that she didn't agree with it. I was pointing out that it isn't just crazed fans who see there's something in it.

But it doesn't back up that point. It goes against it. They're not crazed fans and they disagree with the 'OMG a lezbian dyed in BtVS their such haterz ov gayz n girlz' theory.

Whatever happened to play the ball, not the woman?

I am. I'm criticising what she wrote and commenting on one of the outcomes of such writing. If I'd said she was a stupid misandristic self-obsessed bore who's got her head so far up her own arse that she can indulge in navel-gazing from the inside, then that would be making it personal. But I think that'd be a bit much to get from one stupid essay.

Riley reveals to Buffy that

Spoiler: Captain Cardboard's return

Spike's up to some madcap evil scheme, and while not deliberately punishing her, makes Buffy feel miserable for not choosing him.

So ... he wasn't actually punishing her and, er, he was wrong.

If I were reaching, I could claim that they imply a woman can only be strong with the help of a man, but honestly, it doesn't fit, because the writers never intended misogyny. There's not some calculated plan running through the season. Difference is, the new character is there for one episode, and it's Buffy we've watched demeaned week after week.

I bet you wouldn't discount that character if she fitted your theory.

I never said Willow going bad was unique.

Spoiler: end of season six

I said her going batshit crazy and trying to exterminate the human race over the death of her gay lover had unfortunate implications.

It only has unfortunate implications if such behaviour is unique in the show.

If you think Buffy coped well with Joyce not being around any more, then you must have missed the fact that the situation left Buffy having to support herself and Dawn financially as well as look after Dawn. That was the reason she had to quit college and work all those terrible jobs. It was the absence of a woman, not a man, that caused those problems. Giles helped somewhat with Dawn, but not as much as you might have expected, and he never supported them financially. He felt useless - he had little of use to do any more.

His departure is supposed to unsettle everyone somewhat - that's not implied, it's overt. Season six was about growing up. That includes separating from your parents even if your independence is difficult to begin with. Giles was the father figure. He left, they got unsettled.

Tara being the only one who kept it together is simply laughable. There were other female characters who were doing better than her (even Anya and Dawn) and Tara was never written to be an overly confident, independent character in the first place. Funnily enough, I guess you could see that as a negative portrayal, but nobody ever mentions it.

But again, if you reckoned that one of the lesbian characters was stronger than the rest, that would be evidence of positive characterisation, not negative. You keep arguing against yourself.