The Green Party has some serious questions to answer

[Pickman's model]

We need to prevent sexual abuse. Which is why there's so much concern about what little protection females have being eroded to accommodate a relatively tiny number of people born biologically male and raised and socialised as boys and men.

And how would you propose preventing the greater proportion of sexual abuse which happens at the hands of people the victim knows or is related to? Yeh, prevent sexual abuse: but the volume of abuse you're talking about from trans people is a tiny percentage of that perpetrated by the cis.

 

[spanglechick]

I find the fetish line of argument problematic.

It's pretty essential, since second / third wave feminism to acknowledge that women's traditionally less kinky attitude to sex comes in part from the patriarchal expectation that nice girls don't do that kind of thing. Not that non kinky types are repressed, but that in the past many of them suppressed their libido. How many of us read Nancy Friday's collections of female fantasies as a young woman and felt empowered to acknowledge our own? Sex positivity is at the intrinsic to almost all contemporary feminist thought.


BDSM is enormously popular with men and women. Fifty shades of Grey - while scorned by the fetish community precisely because it disempowers the female submissive - became a phenomenal bestseller with a near exclusively female demographic.
I used to do Ann Summers parties, and furry handcuffs, diamanté-handled crops, and nipple clamps were enormously popular.

Many of the people, men and women, enthusiastically and consensualy engaging in bdsm will also have lives relating to the safeguarding of children. They will be parents, teachers, doctors...

And who gets to decide where the line is drawn between acceptable and unacceptable types or levels of kink? Because I'd have thought the only dividing line is consent.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

What are the other three?

Wouldn't you like to know?

 

[Pickman's model]

Wouldn't you like to know?

Tory ukip English Democrats, that's my bet

 

[spanglechick]

I find the fetish line of argument problematic.

It's pretty essential, since second / third wave feminism to acknowledge that women's traditionally less kinky attitude to sex comes in part from the patriarchal expectation that nice girls don't do that kind of thing. Not that non kinky types are repressed, but that in the past many of them suppressed their libido. How many of us read Nancy Friday's collections of female fantasies as a young woman and felt empowered to acknowledge our own? Sex positivity is at the intrinsic to almost all contemporary feminist thought.


BDSM is enormously popular with men and women. Fifty shades of Grey - while scorned by the fetish community precisely because it disempowers the female submissive - became a phenomenal bestseller with a near exclusively female demographic.
I used to do Ann Summers parties, and furry handcuffs, diamanté-handled crops, and nipple clamps were enormously popular.

Many of the people, men and women, enthusiastically and consensualy engaging in bdsm will also have lives relating to the safeguarding of children. They will be parents, teachers, doctors...

And who gets to decide where the line is drawn between acceptable and unacceptable types or levels of kink? Because I'd have thought the only dividing line is consent.

It occurs to me that two of the most renowned writers of bdsm/kink are female (Anais Nin, and the writer of "The Story of O", which is hardcore bdsm, and whose name escapes me).

 

[Johnny Vodka]

They're not going to look after the environment, they haven't got a clue, useless wastes of skin all of them. Look at Greens in Ireland, Germany, Brighton etc.

I don't know if they're full on capable of running anything, but at least Caroline is a decent voice on the issues I've mentioned. Green issues have now gone mainstream, but the Greens were pushing this stuff first and are certainly the biggest environmental voice. As said, I wouldn't be against voting for them - but I'm not committed to any party and usually decide on the day depending on a mix of things.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Tory ukip English Democrats, that's my bet

That's certainly an interesting answer, but I'm not sure you've been reading my posts.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I don't know if they're full on capable of running anything,

They aren't, they tried in Brighton for 4 years & totally fucked-up.

 

[Athos]

And how would you propose preventing the greater proportion of sexual abuse which happens at the hands of people the victim knows or is related to? Yeh, prevent sexual abuse: but the volume of abuse you're talking about from trans people is a tiny percentage of that perpetrated by the cis.

I think the biggest concern is that cis men will claim trans status to commit such crimes, if the law becomes sufficiently lax to facilitate that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the biggest concern is that cis men will claim trans status to commit such crimes, if the law becomes sufficiently lax to facilitate that.

Really? Trumping abuse at the hands of relatives, acquaintances and friends?

 

[Athos]

Really? Trumping abuse at the hands of relatives, acquaintances and friends?

No, being far greater than the risk from trans people.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, being far greater than the risk from trans people.

And to what extent do you believe this biggest concern justified?

 

[Athos]

And to what extent do you believe this biggest concern justified?

I think that's a question for women to decide.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Coming in a bit late on this but I've got to say I'm not convinced by the argument that just because something is forms part of someone's 'kink' it is beyond criticism and reading anything into kinks is akin to homophobia. I didn't find it convincing in the SWP splitters race play debate (lol) and I don't think it's fair to expect people not to raise an eyebrow when they find out that Green Party woman's kinks overlap so heavily with the forms of abuse her dad committed while living under the same roof. It might not be admissible in a court of law but the burden of proof is considerably lower when you're talking suitability for safeguarding roles etc

 

[Smoking kills]

It occurs to me that two of the most renowned writers of bdsm/kink are female (Anais Nin, and the writer of "The Story of O", which is hardcore bdsm, and whose name escapes me).

Sadism and Masochism are literally named after male writers tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think that's a question for women to decide.

What, for them to tell you your opinion?

 

[Pickman's model]

Sadism and Masochism are literally named after male writers tho.

By other men natch

 

[Athos]

What, for them to tell you your opinion?

No, for them to decide who can come in to their spaces.

I've said many times across a number of these threads that I suspect the risks of exclusion outweigh the risks of inclusion, but that it's not my call.

 

[andysays]

Fair enough, there's a lot of shit on both sides, that's obvious. But if one side starts from a pov that the *only* response to their demands is "ok whatever you say or you are a bigot" then I think it's fair to lay this one at their feet. On this thread it's been clear who has been hurling abuse, some of it pretty nasty.




Are you still beefing about me not linking to sources that show the GP is arguing for self-id? TBH that just seemed crazy. You were at the point that you said even if there were utterly clear links from other posters you that what I posted was true, my credibility was irreparably damaged. That just looks like bulletin board ego-fight stuff to me.

Maybe I missed some other stuff, I don't live on here. My point re Spacklefrog was that they just yell obscenities - no arguments.

No, it was a far more specific claim which you made and then refused to substantiate.

To be clear, I'm not beefing, I'm just pointing out the contrast between what you demand of others and what you've done yourself.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, for them to decide who can come in to their spaces.

I've said many times across a number of Therese threads that I suspect the risks of exclusion outweigh the risks of inclusion, but that it's not my call.

That's got nothing to do with my question

 

[trashpony]

And who gets to decide where the line is drawn between acceptable and unacceptable types or levels of kink? Because I'd have thought the only dividing line is consent.

Some people (including Aimee Challenor's mother) think that children are capable of consent.

 

[Athos]

That's got nothing to do with my question

If your question is, effectively: 'to what extent do think women's fears that cis men will take advantage of changing laws and societal attitudes to abuse women reflect a real risk', then I'd say: 'to a reasonable extent.' If your question is something else, you'll need to make it clearer.

 

[spanglechick]

Some people (including Aimee Challenor's mother) think that children are capable of consent.

Ok, but the law is very clear on that not being the case.

 

[Pickman's model]

If your question is, effectively: 'to what extent do think women's fears that cis men will take advantage of changing laws and societal attitudes to abuse women reflect a real risk', then I'd say: 'to a reasonable extent.' If your question is something else, you'll need to make it clearer.

I'm at a loss to see why a simple clear question required so much effort to get a relevant answer out of you

 

[cupid_stunt]

Some people (including Aimee Challenor's mother) think that children are capable of consent.

If true, that's scary, do you have a source/link for that?

 

[trashpony]

Ok, but the law is very clear on that not being the case.

It is now. But when people who think that children are capable of consenting are close to the people who are involved in pushing legal change, I think it demands a good deal of scrutiny.

 

[andysays]

Some people (including Aimee Challenor's mother) think that children are capable of consent.

Is there any reason why the views of Aimee Challenor's mother are of particular relevance here?

 

[trashpony]

If true, that's scary, do you have a source/link for that?

Tina Challenor has referred to the victim as a 'little slut' in a tweet. I can find it for you but I'm sure I'm not the only person on this thread who has seen the revolting things she's written about her husband's child rape and torture victim

 

[trashpony]

Is there any reason why the views of Aimee Challenor's mother are of particular relevance here?

Aimee said she needed to be left alone after her dad's sentencing to care for her disabled mother. Her disabled mother who stood up in court and accused the victim of being a lying fantasist and of being a little slut. When she was a 10 year old child.

In addition, Tina (as well as David) was convicted of animal cruelty in 2015 which means she was unable to stand as a Green Party councillor in 2018 - because she had a 3 month suspended sentence. She stood anyway. And David Challenor was also her election agent.

 

[spanglechick]

It is now. But when people who think that children are capable of consenting are close to the people who are involved in pushing legal change, I think it demands a good deal of scrutiny.

There is no political party in the land that would countenance lowering the age of consent to include children having sex with adults. It's not part of trans activism, even at the more extreme end. You seem to be linking paedophilia with the trans agenda, with no evidence other than the vile bollocks spewed by some really fucked up adults and a very young person who may or may not have been subject to the most awful sexual abuse, and who - in their teens - has courted controversy online with some sexually provocative posturing.

ACshould never have been given a position of influence within the GP. She's too young, she doesn't seem very bright and she employed an election agent who'd been charged with the most vile of offenses. I agree with that. And she herself may turn out to have caused harm - though I see no evidence has been dug up yet, though I suspect it's not through want of trying. But that doesn't mean that her trans status is what made her in appropriate, and it doesn't mean TRA want to allow paedophilia.