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*The evidence for the 'hijack' theory of 9-11

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Originally posted by freethepeeps
Cock-ups sometimes happen when bosses deliberately suppress information or veto actions which might prevent a disaster. Leaders have been known to "sacrifice" citizens for large-scale political gain.
Just so I know where you're coming from on this, do you believe that the planes were flown by remote control and the passengers calls faked?

And if it was all a big pretext for war in Iraq, why the chuffin' heck are 'they' putting themselves through the long humiliation of not finding WMD, when planting them would be a piece of piss compared to planning 9/11?

I have very little regard for the USG and have no problem imaging that they could turn their hand to some very, very nasty things.

But I'm still not convinced that they'd take to blowing up a large chunk of NYC, mass slaughtering their own citizens and bombing the Pentagon in a unprecedented act of self-violence.

After all, they don't have to. They're the biggest bullies in town and as they've proved time and time again, when it suits their needs they don't give a hoot what the world (or the UN) thinks of their belligerent, illegal actions.
 
And you only have to look as the desperate scrambles to try Zacarias Moussaoui to make you realise this has not been planned in any way.

If there were no hijackers why is he even being prosecuted? Won't this bring opportunities to expose the fraud? It would be madness for any conspiricy to allow it.
 
Originally posted by editor
Since when were government/military incompetence, bungling, fuck ups and subsequent attempts to cover up the aforementioned 'implausible'?

History's littered with such events and such a theory is a damn sight more plausible than ne'er-before-seen remote controlled passenger aircraft using invisible technology smashing into US buildings in unprecedented acts of self destruction.

Etc etc etc etczzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'm not too familiar with previous military/govt. cock ups, but can imagine that cover up attempts would swiftly follow. My "implausable perhaps" comment was mostly a nod in the direction of those who know more than I and have argued such.


Do you believe the US govt. is engaged in a cover up operation to deflect attention from the cock ups they made which allowed the events to occur?


Personally, I find the "remote control theory" to be less credible than the "cock up theory", but this is based on little other than "gut feel" and "common sense" (something I am not generally known for being deeply imbued with).

With respect to having seen a cohesive, solid, argument, that hangs nicely together without raising issues and questions that have yet to be properly addressed, and certainly not resolved, let alone seeing "irrefutable evidence" that supports the "hijack theory": I have not. Certainly not on this thread.

I do not know the truth, but I feel that there are many inconsistencies, gaps, unanswered questions, and "holes" in the "story" as presented by the US govt./media. I believe it is worthwhile, imperative perhaps, to ask awkward questions about the events in order to discover as much as possible. I believe this to be the case, even if one adhere's to the "cock up" theory.

On balance, at the moment, I still lean towards a version of events that closely resembles "the official story", but again recognise that this effectively hinges merely upon my acceptance of what I hear from govt and mainstream media. It is good that I do not rely entirely on this "trust", I feel.

Threads such as this, have been an extremely useful educational tool for me (and I suspect many others) in this regard. I don't know that my opinions have shifted that much, but I do know that I am far better informed than I would be in their absence.

:)

Woof
 
Originally posted by Jessiedog
On balance, at the moment, I still lean towards a version of events that closely resembles "the official story", but again recognise that this effectively hinges merely upon my acceptance of what I hear from govt and mainstream media. It is good that I do not rely entirely on this "trust", I feel.
And that just about sums up my opinions on the matter.
 
Originally posted by nala1917
Erm ... DrJ posted it in response to those who declared the technology to be non-existent. He did not claim that the link 'proved' that the technology could have been used on 9/11.

Do keep up man.

by Editor on other 9/11 thread
DrJ of these very boards has asserted that he believes that the planes that hit the World Trade tower were remotely controlled.

Nala try reading the first 2 posts on the other 9/11 thread. DrJ does appear to be using this info as 'proof' of his remotee control theory.
 
Originally posted by Backatcha Bandit
Wouldbe,

Check out the dates at the bottom of this page.

They would indicate that the first flight took place on March 2, 1998.
OOH so the first flight took place in 1998. Any ideas how long it takes to conplete all test flights and get an airworthyness certificate??

Obviously, the control systems would have been around for a while before that.
Yes there must have been some control system but not necessarily a nice handy all in one box, thats why the ground control system won't be available til Dec this year.

What we can safely establish as fact is that the control infrastructure - the technical ability - was in place before 11/9/01.

No infrastructure was not available before 9/11.

If it takes 3 years (1998 to first prototype in early 2001) to undergo all trials it is reasonable to assume it would take a similar time period to fully test a modified commercial aircraft which doesn't appear to have even been proposed at this stage.

considering the reports on cellphone interference not affecting commercial aircraft that ZDNet, MSN, The Times and Wall Street Journal publish (contradicting the CAA report).

What are the sources for the Times and Wall Street Journal? You seriously take the word of ZDNet, MSN over the CAA and NASA?
 
Originally posted by nala1917
Bush has anounced that they are looking at using it in passenger planes as an anti-hijacking measure - I linked to the story somewhere in this monstrous thread - I have no idea what the time-frame for this plan would be, the story implied it was still at the planning stage.

And if they are only just looking at the idea of remote control to prevent hijackings and the idea is still in the planning stage then How could this have been used on 9/11???
 
Originally posted by editor

And if it was all a big pretext for war in Iraq, why the chuffin' heck are 'they' putting themselves through the long humiliation of not finding WMD, when planting them would be a piece of piss compared to planning 9/11?



Maybe so they can use this as a defence.


Maybe so it* destaballises the neo labour project and totally ruins TB's chance of becoming President of Europe.......maybe


*not finding WMD deliberatley
 
Originally posted by WouldBe
OOH so the first flight took place in 1998.


Yes, the first flight took place in 1998.

So your assertation that 'The project wasn't started until March 2001' would appear to be untrue.

(I've just consulted my 'World Domination for Dummies' manual, it indeed does suggest that if you find yourself orchestrating a plot that involves clandestine remote control of aircraft, you must make sure that you bolt a fully certified and approved ACME Ter-o-matic remote control unit to the side of the fuselage). " ;) "


Originally posted by WouldBe
You seriously take the word of ZDNet, MSN over the CAA and NASA?


Apologies for not making it clearer, by 'they can't be trusted' I was referring to the mainstream media.

The words 'All this flapjack about the credibility of sources other than the mainstream media is pretty funny', which directly preceded the words you quoted, might just have given this away.


Now for something new.

Some news! :) Regarding 'evidence' and '9/11 conspiracy theories'! :eek:

Raissi, a British-based Algerian who studied at a flight school in Arizona, was arrested in London 10 days after the attacks and held for five months in the city's high security Belmarsh prison.

No evidence

But he was later cleared of wrongdoing in extradition proceedings in front of a British judge, who said US officials had failed to present any evidence to back up accusations that he had links to terrorism.

Source

The 'official version' seems to be falling apart piece by piece.

Whether this is due more to the continous asking of awkward questions over the last 2 years, or the apparent lack of any credible evidence to support it, I am unsure. Probably a blend of both.
 
Originally posted by editor

And if it was all a big pretext for war in Iraq, why the chuffin' heck are 'they' putting themselves through the long humiliation of not finding WMD, when planting them would be a piece of piss compared to planning 9/11?
Here's what I mused the last time you asked this question:

Originally posted by editor
It's amazing that 'they' were able to pull off what has to be one of the biggest conspiracies known to mankind, yet somehow 'they' couldn't get it together to slap a few WMD in the barren deserts around Iraq, isn't it?

After all, several have repeatedly opined that they believe Bush to be behind 9/11, so why hasn't he just delved right back into his global conspiracy pack and pulled out a few tons of nerve gas and scattered liberally?

With America's reputation on the block and Bush's domestic ratings heading into freefall, perhaps one of you conspiracy types might like to offer an opinion why that might be?

Surely with all those black helicopters at his disposal he could have conjured up something to avoid his continuing embarrassment on the world stage?


This is a good point. There was certainly a lot of expectation before, during and after the war, that weapons would be found after the war quite regardless of whether they were there before it.

Some idle speculation as follows ...

The focus in the run up to war shifted substantially towards the ... err ... 'humanitarian' "Saddam bad => bombing Iraq good" argument, along with repeated attempts to make the Al-Qaeda connection stick. Almost as soon as hostilities ceased Wolfowitz was stating that WMD removal wasn't even a central war aim, and that the pre-war focus on them was just a bureaucratic compromise.

If you remember, way back before 1441 the reasons for going to war shifted a lot - from a starting point that was emphatically about regime change for regime change's sake, it then started shifting to arguments about 'humanitarian' action, links with Al-Qaeda and WMDs - the arguments seemed to shift arbitrarily on an almost daily basis. I think Wolfowitz may have been telling the absolute truth on this occasion - once they'd agreed to Blair's plan of trying the UN route they had to find a legal basis for war - and regime change isn't one. WMDs was the only option that could be dressed up as requiring a 'defensive' response to a clear and immediate threat.

From their point of view, I think the post-war strategy of trying to distance themselves from the WMD thang after the fact is back-firing badly. I'm not sure they have any real concept of the extent of anger out there, and also the extremely reluctant and highly conditional nature of the 'support' (or rather lack of overt opposition) from people who decided they simply had to take their word for it on WMDs and support the troops when war was declared. I think also that when they first implemented the strategy of retrospectively changing the war aims they didn't know quite how badly it was going to go - it would be much less of an issue, and thus a much sounder strategy, if the massively over-optimistic predictions of smiling Iraqis welcoming them with open arms had come true.

It was probably a bad miscalculation - but it must have seemed much the safest option at the time. How easy would it really be to smuggle credible quantities of WMDs in when the place is crawling with troops, not all of them terribly impressed at being there and many, perhaps the majority, with a healthy scepticism about the reasons for the war (the military on both sides of the pond were vocally hostile until the invasion was utterly inevitable).

I guess this latter point is similar to the argument put forward regarding 9/11 - they simply could not afford to get caught in the act. There is a critical difference though:

Planting WMDs in Iraq would be a government-level, covert-but-official decision - the risk assessment would be taken very seriously indeed. If (and I mean if) there was some complicity in 9/11, I seriously doubt that even Bush would have known about it - he's the monkey, not the organ grinder - and it's way too out there to be anything other than a group of "crazies" with ambitions and the right connections, champing at the bit after 10+ years of planning and 8 years of Clinton - finally in with a chance after successfuly stealing one election, acutely aware of the timing of the next one and the 'need' to have Iraq safely over and done with in time to capitalise on it.

In addition, of course, they may well have achieved 9/11 by manipulating Al-Qaeda or a similar group, in which case the risk of getting caught would be much less; the people putting the plan into operation wouldn't have to know who the 'client' was. And the "crazies" (as they were openly referred to in Bush Snr's time) would have a very different approach to risk assessment than the government. It's a pretty all or nothing strategy for them - the PNAC plan is hugely risky, and they know it even if they don't fully acknowledge the extent of the risks - but the alternatives are either imminent economic collapse or a rational economic policy - both utterly unacceptable, especially when it can all be avoided by going to war.
 
Originally posted by freethepeeps
I'm really confused now. I know about the hijack theory, and I know some of Dr. J's theory, I also know that a lot of people think that the USG knew it was going to happen and did nothing to stop it , but what is the "cock-up" theory?
FTP - the hijack theory and the cock-up theory are essentially one and the same thing. Multiple intelligence warnings, dodgy immigration forms, multiple failure of airport security checks and cameras, failure of military to investigate hijacks (no fighters even got to the scene, even if they'd have been powerless to do anything - Bush issued the order to shoot down after the Pentagon crash) ...

The hijack theory rests on a catastrophic series of cock-ups in just about every department that might have been able to do something. So, it's also known as the cock-up theory.

;)
 
Originally posted by DoUsAFavour
Maybe so they can use this as a defence.
Ah, the classic conspiracy cop-out!

Use huge, broad strokes to explain how 'they' used immense resources to create the world's biggest conspiracy, but as soon as any uncomfortable contradicting details come to light, simply dismiss them as intentionally placed 'oversights', designed to make the conspiracy more convincing.

There's really not much point pursuing this any more, particularly as some posters now seem hell bent on lazily reposting huge swathes of previous posts.
 
Originally posted by editor
Just so I know where you're coming from on this, do you believe that the planes were flown by remote control and the passengers calls faked?

And if it was all a big pretext for war in Iraq, why the chuffin' heck are 'they' putting themselves through the long humiliation of not finding WMD, when planting them would be a piece of piss compared to planning 9/11?

I have very little regard for the USG and have no problem imaging that they could turn their hand to some very, very nasty things.

But I'm still not convinced that they'd take to blowing up a large chunk of NYC, mass slaughtering their own citizens and bombing the Pentagon in a unprecedented act of self-violence.

After all, they don't have to. They're the biggest bullies in town and as they've proved time and time again, when it suits their needs they don't give a hoot what the world (or the UN) thinks of their belligerent, illegal actions.

Editor

Quite simply I believe that they were aware that the hijackings were going to happen, and a decision was taken at the highest level to allow them to proceed and suceed.

I'm sure it is possible to fly planes by remote control (after all the Israelis have been using drones for a long time :) ) but I don't think it goes so far as the Americans targetting the building themselves.

I believe they could have prevented 911 from happening, and chose not to.

Okay?
 
Originally posted by editor
There's really not much point pursuing this any more, particularly as some posters now seem hell bent on lazily reposting huge swathes of previous posts.
Would that be because some posters lazily repost the same questions without explaining why they dispute previous responses?

Would you bother to engage in a discussion if I rephrased and posted a shiny new post?

Somehow, I doubt it.
 
Originally posted by nala1917
Would that be because some posters lazily repost the same questions without explaining why they dispute previous responses?

Would you bother to engage in a discussion if I rephrased and posted a shiny new post?

Somehow, I doubt it.
Seeing as I'm not blessed with a photographic memory of every post here, a short summary of previous comments would suffice, thanks (seeing as I run the boards too, I tend to have to read an awful lot of posts, you see)

But of course, your memory has been known to fail you too - as witnessed with your ludicrous claim that I bring up Peter Kirsch "repeatedly on every other thread".

Now, what was that you were saying about hypocrisy? ;)
 
Originally posted by System of a Down
ignorance is frustatrating.
Thanks for that mis-spelt pearl of wisdom! Fabulous!

Any chance of you explaining what you're on about, or is the start of a short series of entirely random expressions?
 
Originally posted by editor
Seeing as I'm not blessed with a photographic memory of every post here, a short summary of previous comments would suffice, thanks (seeing as I run the boards too, I tend to have to read an awful lot of posts, you see)

But of course, your memory has been known to fail you too - as witnessed with your ludicrous claim that I bring up Peter Kirsch "repeatedly on every other thread".

Now, what was that you were saying about hypocrisy? ;)
Hmm ... a quick search for your posts with the word "kirsch" reveals 40 hits. :eek: And that's not going to pick up those many many posts where you refer to him in rather more general terms - as Vialls' mysterious/elusive retired/shy expert etc.

And you decide to defend yourself by picking on a bit of poetic licence? :rolleyes:

Why so shy about answering questions addressed to you when you're so insistent that others answers yours that you repeat them as infinitum?** And then ignore any answers - presumably because you can't find a way to take the piss out of them?



**poetic licence acknowledged ;)
 
Originally posted by nala1917
Hmm ... a quick search for your posts with the word "kirsch" reveals 40 hits. :eek: And that's not going to pick up those many many posts where you refer to him in rather more general terms - as Vialls' mysterious/elusive retired/shy expert etc.
Face it: you're talking absolute fucking bollocks of the highest order by claiming that I mention Peter Kirsch "repeatedly on every other thread".

So why not make things easier for yourself, quit wriggling and just admit it: you were wrong.

And I ask questions because when someone makes a definitive statement based on the flimsiest of evidence, it's up to them to defend it.

If I posted up claiming to "know" about a "gross conspiracy" that had somehow eluded other posters, I sure as hell would expect a torrent of tough questions to support my wild assertion
 
Originally posted by editor

Use huge, broad strokes to explain how 'they' used immense resources to create the world's biggest conspiracy, but as soon as any uncomfortable contradicting details come to light, simply dismiss them as intentionally placed 'oversights', designed to make the conspiracy more convincing.



Their goal is world domination, hinderance of the development of Europe into a super state/super power has got to be part of the plan. To do this they need (in their eyes) to stop or destabilise a central leader.
 
Originally posted by DoUsAFavour
Their goal is world domination, hinderance of the development of Europe into a super state/super power has got to be part of the plan. To do this they need (in their eyes) to stop or destabilise a central leader.
Ah. So 'they' planned and executed 9/11 without Bush and Blair knowing as part of their cunning world domination master plan?

And do 'they' stroke white pussy cats?
 
What is so implausible about the idea that certain far right wing, hawkish elements within and/or around the US administration, in cahoots with certain elements within the House of Saud, organised the whole thing?

Seems eminently plausible. The hawks get their Pearl Harbour - that's clear enough.

But what do the Saudi elements get, or who else could the US hawks have worked with?

(D'oh, sorry, off topic. I know I should be trying to dig up some plausible evidence for the "hijack theory", but it's just so hard to find very much that doesn't have holes in. ;) )

:)

Woof
 
Originally posted by Jessiedog
What is so implausible about the idea that certain far right wing, hawkish elements within and/or around the US administration, in cahoots with certain elements within the House of Saud, organised the whole thing?
That's what I'm asking about.

If the suggestion is that the entire 9/11 'conspiracy' was executed by shadowy right wing figures within the USG who now intend to 'destabilise' Bush, I'd like some damn good motives.

Forgetting for the moment the improbability of the head of the USG (dim though he is) and all hs close aides being completely unaware of this mysterious shadowy agenda being pursued, what would be the point of 'destabilising' Bush?

Doing so would surely only discredit the entire 'war on terrorism' further and increase the possibility of Bush being replaced by a more liberal leader?
 
PNAC = Shhhhhh!

Dunno about destabilising Bush, but for sure it has allowed the US to roll out the plans the PNAC were developing in the early/mid 1990's - almost point by point as set out in their thesis.

:)

Woof
 
Originally posted by editor
Ah. So 'they' planned and executed 9/11 without Bush and Blair knowing as part of their cunning world domination master plan?

And do 'they' stroke white pussy cats?


I never said they 'planned' or executed. All they had to do was turn a blind eye when it was neccessary and just forget to mention or place enough emphasis on a certain warnings to TB or Dubya (but those pair of slags are definatley capable of such crimes).

All TB knows is what the security services or the US tell him and the UK services at least ARE controlled by masons (no laughing at the back).

Check out the insignia of MI5 on this page



link
 
Originally posted by Backatcha Bandit
So your assertation that 'The project wasn't started until March 2001' would appear to be untrue.

I stand corrected. Bad paraphrasing by me. The first production aircraft wasn't ordered until March 2001.
 
Jessiedog:

The people who make up the PNAC have been arguing for an aggressive policy in the Middle East since the Reagan era - when most of them were in government too.

They didn't create a Pearl Harbour back in the 80s, though, did they? Even though Gorbachev was falling over himself to get out of the direct confrontation of the arms race....

They have wanted to reshape the Middle East for a long time, believing that doing so was the best possible way to preserve US security. Once US security was so spectacularly threatened 2 years ago, their arguments seemed quite prescient. So Bush went with them.

If you had actually bothered to follow the careers of these old Reaganites, you would havel seen that most of them have left government or have been sidelined. Bush and Rice have lost faith in them because of their inability to foresee the chaos of post-Saddam Iraq, and have reined them in. How often do Cheney or Rumsfeld raise their heads now? And if you had read the Weekly Standard regularly, you would have noticed that the general tone has shifted from that of being on the winning side (ie having Bush's attention) to a plaintive 'Why won't you listen to us any more?'

I imagine you would have done all of this, given that you want to be a journalist and all. I mean, research is always so crucial, isn't it?




Oh, and if anyone seriously expects a symbol that may or may not be an eye on a alleged picture of an MI5 badge (how many MI5 officers wear that badge, do you reckon? How does that figue compare to the number of people in the world with PhotoShop?) proves that there is a secret conspiracy to destroy the WTC and change the Middle East, I would suggest that they ask their doctor to increase their prescription of anti-psychotics.
 
info,

I see many of the old PNACers in and around the current administration.

And, few would deny, what is currently happening is a very close fit to the PNAC's published intentions/desires.

If it walks like a duck, talks......

I see no indication that the "hawks" are out of favour, perhaps you could enlighten me.

(P.S. While yer at it, seen any "evidence" that "proves" the hijack theory?)


Edit: Oh! And if you would like to commission my first PAID article, I can assure you it will be intricately researched, referenced and written with the greatest of care and time invested, so as to ensure you receive the most excellent piece, as well as excellent value for money. (I'll even spell check it.)

;)

Woof
 
Well, I'm not about to write a 2000 word article on the issue, for similar reasons to youself. But I have done quite a bit of the research, just to keep up to date.

Basically, run through the list of people on the PNAC website. Recall what they were doing in the months leading up to the war, and how much press coverage they got. Compare that with now.

Aslo, compare which of the policies that they argued before the war have been borne out by events. Ask youself if the policies that Bush is now pursuing fit more with the Reaganites' ideas or with the multilateralists' ideas.

If you follow that line through for all of them, you'll find that they have largley fallen out of favour, and don't have the undivided attention of the President that they had a year ago.

Of course, if you want me to spell it all out for you, line by line, I too would expect some kind of compensation for my time...
 
Originally posted by DoUsAFavour
Check out the insignia of MI5 on this page
Imagine! A big secret organisation that openly advertises its 'secret' allegiance to, err, the The Eye of Horus on its logo!

They can't be very good at keeping secrets, can they?
 
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