The Brexit process

[butchersapron]

http://statewatch.org/news/2015/mar/ep-study-cris-fr.pdf

What is this you've linked to - and why?

 

[Anju]

had to google him,(Labour’s Brexit spokesman) but supposedly he's Britains Last Remaining Hope Keir Starmer: Britain’s last Remaining hope
""
In the most comprehensive explanation of his position on Brexit to date, Starmer told POLITICO that Britain’s membership of the single market will have to “lapse,” that Labour will push for “the fullest possible” tariff-free access to European markets, and that any new deal with Brussels will require Westminster to have some control over who comes to work in the U.K.

Setting a course at odds with his leader, Starmer argued that immigration has been too high and said Labour must support “some change to the way freedom of movement rules operate” as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Starmer is also open to the U.K. leaving the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice — the prime minister’s core demand — as long as another body is established to settle disputes between Britain and the EU.

In all, it suggests Labour is flexible on the practicalities of Brexit, but only within certain red lines, which the party is not prepared to cross. “If she’s out, out, out then there’s no compromise,” Starmer insisted. A total, clean break from the EU, its single market and customs union is not acceptable to him. If May does not compromise, Starmer said he sees no possibility of consensus."

I also had to Google him.

I only became aware of his existence after seeing him mentioned in some Facebook posts as a possible future leader.

 

[Anju]

What is this you've linked to - and why?

It is the document I mentioned. I found it for you as you seemed disappointed that I only provided a short description.

 

[butchersapron]

It is the document I mentioned. I found it for you as you seemed disappointed that I only provided a short description.

That's not from the eu. It's from a pretty anti eu group.

 

[Anju]

That's not from the eu. It's from a pretty anti eu group.

Try going off more than the link address.

I am just making the point that the EU is a better place to be than an isolated UK with a Tory government, no viable opposition and the possibility of a snap election that could give us a Tory and UKIP dominated parliament. All backed up by a shameless right wing media.

 

[butchersapron]

Try going off more than the link address.

I am just making the point that the EU is a better place to be than an isolated UK with a Tory government, no viable opposition and the possibility of a snap election that could give us a Tory and UKIP dominated parliament. All backed up by a shameless right wing media.

Borish johnson nailed on as PM.

 

[Wilf]

Paul Mason: How the left should respond to Brexit

interesting read - its all quite simple apparently - just come up with a platform that can win back voters who have defected both to the the Greens AND UKIP whilst :

...staying inside the single market, while seeking a deal on free movement....

That had a very commentariat feel about it. Class flits in and out as some kind of floating, changing thing, that bits of the elite might want to ally with. Owen Jones on weak steroids.

 

[butchersapron]

Try going off more than the link address.

I am just making the point that the EU is a better place to be than an isolated UK with a Tory government, no viable opposition and the possibility of a snap election that could give us a Tory and UKIP dominated parliament. All backed up by a shameless right wing media.

The document, where does it say what you said it does?

 

[Anju]

Borish johnson nailed on as PM.

For that we would need someone to make a reply version to 'things can only get better' for him to walk out of no. 10 to when making his inaugural speech.

 

[butchersapron]

That had a very commentariat feel about it. Class flits in and out as some kind of floating, changing thing, that bits of the elite might want to ally with. Owen Jones on weak steroids.

Class is gone in mason's view. It existed through unions and rep bodies. It doesn't do that now. It doesn't exist any more.

 

[butchersapron]

For that we would need someone to make a reply version to 'things can only get better' for him to walk out of no. 10 to when making his inaugural speech.

Or a list of remain cocks were were sure this was the 100% outcome.

 

[butchersapron]

Or a list of remain cocks were were sure this was the 100% outcome.

That a 100% long list.

 

[Anju]

The document, where does it say what you said it does?

I don't remember. It is 200 odd pages long and I skimmed about 150 pages. The only thing I came away thinking was that at least neoliberal globalist economics was being discussed as potentially problematic.

I guess this is not something that will make you reconsider you position. I just think it is evidence that the EU might be a safer place for people in Britain than under, and we will be under, the stewardship of TM and her little gang.

 

[Anju]

Or a list of remain cocks were were sure this was the 100% outcome.

Only the names have changed. Murdoch must like May.

 

[redsquirrel]

This is a thread about the Brexit Process...it was always going to be about these things, and will inevitably continue to be so.
Good time to be a constitutional lawyer

You can talk about such things (and how they might be used in the playing of the the situation) without going dreamy-eyed overt them. There's plenty of discussion/analysis of electoral politics on here by people that would quite gladly see 90+% of the HoC hanged.

 

[redsquirrel]

http://statewatch.org/news/2015/mar/ep-study-cris-fr.pdf

The term liberalism doesn't appear in the document and the only time 'globalisation' is used is on an into of p18 and in reference titles.

This is the first bullet point in the summary of recommendations

General recommendations are aimed at ensuring that spending cuts are based on detailed evaluation of effectiveness, efficiency, relevance and added value of public expenditure, while the European Parliament is invited to continue insisting on the establishment of clear, transparent and binding rules of procedure for the interaction between the institutions within the Troika.

So a general acceptance of spending cuts

 

[brogdale]

I just think it is evidence that the EU might be a safer place for people in Britain than under, and we will be under, the stewardship of TM and her little gang.

Which is all very well and good if you believe that the institutions claiming to be running things are actually doing that.

 

[gosub]

No ‘blank cheque’ over triggering Article 50, top Labour and Lib Dem peers tell Theresa May



(edited. Linked to directly rather than through 3rd party)

 

[Poi E]

http://flip.it/EImyMY

Reform of the HoL suddenly goes up the agenda.

 

[gosub]

Reform of the HoL suddenly goes up the agenda.

Not before time, needs sorting. The sort term work around is same as a century ago threat of 1000 Lords overnight, even got a WMD version Lord Farage of Pub anyone..?

 

[gosub]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/06/why-the-brexit-judges-were-right-article-50

 

[coley]

I don't remember. It is 200 odd pages long and I skimmed about 150 pages. The only thing I came away thinking was that at least neoliberal globalist economics was being discussed as potentially problematic.

I guess this is not something that will make you reconsider you position. I just think it is evidence that the EU might be a safer place for people in Britain than under, and we will be under, the stewardship of TM and her little gang.

"The 'four freedoms' of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders"

Aye, have a serious good look at it, the EU, the ultimate neoliberal/ right wing 'wet dream'

The 'freedom' to import cheap labour, the freedom to import 'materials' produced by labour not considered economically worthy of 'being here'
'Corporate and Capital tax evasion' an increasingly unelected legislative apparatus? I could go on a length but better minds than mine have raised these points time and time again.

 

[Ax^]

The 'freedom' to import cheap labour, the freedom to import 'materials' produced by labour not considered economically worthy of 'being here'
'Corporate and Capital tax evasion' an increasingly unelected legislative apparatus? I could go on a length but better minds than mine have raised these points time and time again.

sounds like a Tory Manifesto and with the latest public vote we can enjoy thous fuckers for another 10 years...


nothing in the 6 months has offered an alternative

 

[Yossarian]

I don't think the voice was snuffed out.

It was never strong enough. Sadly, I don't think more than a handful of people were ever really making a serious "lexit" case.

But had it been, I'm sure both right leavers and left remainders would indeed have done their best to shut it up.

It wasn't the strongest voice, but I saw the Lexit case made on here and elsewhere very convincingly. I was definitely a lot more anti-EU at the end of the campaign than at the start of it.

But what I didn't see a strong argument for was how exactly how a Brexit negotiated for and implemented by the Conservative Party could be a Lexit or something any better than how things are now - I don't see how that could even be possible, it's like expecting food to pass through someone's digestive system and out their rectum and not be shit.

A big part of the Lexit argument seemed to be "let's get rid of the EU's neoliberalism now and then deal with it in the UK" - but how is that going to happen any time soon with an electorate that saw 5 years of austerity etc. under a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition and decided to give the Conservatives a majority? It's like the Australian referendum on the monarchy - a lot of people voted to keep it not because they loved the Queen, but because they had no faith in any change delivered by the government of the time being an improvement.

All that I could see happening with a Brexit win was things carrying on much the same as they were before, but with Conservative policies becoming more entrenched, society becoming that little bit shittier in general, and a lot of working class people losing their jobs or being pushed into poverty by the economy going downhill.

Britain is almost certainly going to leave the EU - and it might even be for the best, sooner or later - but having the process taken out of the hands of Theresa May and her cronies and filtered through Parliament, the judiciary, etc. is probably going to be a good thing, even for Lexiters.

 

[gosub]

Guardian says that today Corbyn will make a speech saying “Thursday’s high court decision underlines the necessity that the prime minister brings the government’s negotiating terms for Brexit to parliament without delay.Labour accepts and respects the decision of the British people to leave the EU. But there must be transparency and accountability to parliament about the government’s plans.”
If so that'll basically be a statement in support of the ruling isn't it.

Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit ultimatum to Theresa May

 

[bimble]

Interesting. So he's saying it's vital the UK retains access to the single market and makes no mention of free movement / immigration.
Not clear to me what "Pledges on Britain picking up the tab for any EU capital investment lost by Brexit" might actually mean.
The independant translates this into "Labour could block brexit" headline and the DM goes with "I will only accept Brexit on MY terms says Corbyn".

 

[brogdale]

Jeremy Corbyn: Labour will block article 50 if demands not met

Which kind of implies that he's under the impression that Labour (as a unified Parliamentary party!) could effect such an outcome.

 

[stethoscope]

Which kind of implies that he's under the impression that Labour (as a unified Parliamentary party!) could effect such an outcome.

Quite - what realistically does he think that he and Labour can do in that regard?! Besides we all know that Labour will demand 'some concessions' and then still support whatever capital wants.

 

[brogdale]

Quite - what realistically does he think that he and Labour can do in that regard?! Besides we all know that Labour will demand 'some concessions' and then still support whatever capital wants.

Yep, May knows she's got 172 who will do her bidding just to cast Corbyn as the anti-(Brexit)-christ.

 

[Kaka Tim]

labour are fucked whatever they do though. to try and block brexit would leave them wide open for a UKIP assault in their heartlands. If they support brexit half of their mps, most of their membership and big chunk of their voters will go ape. Which leaves trying to ride both horses at once as the only politically viable option - but its still a really shit option.