Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The Brexit process

chilango said:
There's a class based perspective on Brexit. That's what matters.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I also think the moment has passed. If there was a time for a working class (lexit) voice it was during the referendum. It was always going to be difficult establishing that alongside the other groups calling for brexit, most of which were nationalistic or even racist - ukip, tory right etc. Where we are now is going to play out as a harrumphing conversation about sovereignty and the constitution, with staggering levels of hypocrisy on both sides. But underneath all that is really the weakness of organised working class politics. Labour under corbyn didn't managed to deliver either a working class voice or politics around Brexit. I suspect he was probably being honest when he said he'd reached a remain conclusion and saw that as in the best interests of 'working people' or somesuch, but that was all still a universe away from engaging with the real alienation working class voters felt towards the whole political class.
 
Wilf said:
I agree, but I also think the moment has passed. If there was a time for a working class (lexit) voice it was during the referendum. It was always going to be difficult establishing that alongside the other groups calling for brexit, most of which were nationalistic or even racist - ukip, tory right etc. Where we are now is going to play out as a harrumphing conversation about sovereignty and the constitution, with staggering levels of hypocrisy on both sides. But underneath all that is really the weakness of organised working class politics. Labour under corbyn didn't managed to deliver either a working class voice or politics around Brexit. I suspect he was probably being honest when he said he'd reached a remain conclusion and saw that as in the best interests of 'working people' or somesuch, but that was all still a universe away from engaging with the real alienation working class voters felt towards the whole political class.
Click to expand...
It was the left remainers that snuffed that voice out - not the right leavers. The rest i don't disagree with.
 
chilango said:
I don't think anybody is "making vague statements about the working class rescuing the situation."

Rather that, just perhaps, we don't have any real interest in this situation being rescued...
Click to expand...

But that means accepting a more extreme Tory government potentially with an increased majority, escalating of hateful rhetoric in the media and on social media, as well as leaving people totally at the mercy of a type of capitalism devoid of any notion of reciprocal benefit.

The 'establishment' have even managed to engineer anti establishment sentiment that benefits them. They are winning.

Relying on things becoming so desperate that people rise up and demand a better deal seems a bit fanciful.

This is the type of thing the working class are facing now. International business controlling workers in multiple countries. We will be fighting each other not those in control.

Meet Coople: The 'gig-economy' app that's like Uber for short-term staffing
 
butchersapron said:
It was the left remainers that snuffed that voice out - not the right leavers. The rest i don't disagree with.
Click to expand...

I don't think the voice was snuffed out.

It was never strong enough. Sadly, I don't think more than a handful of people were ever really making a serious "lexit" case.

But had it been, I'm sure both right leavers and left remainders would indeed have done their best to shut it up.
 
butchersapron said:
It was the left remainers that snuffed that voice out - not the right leavers. The rest i don't disagree with.
Click to expand...
I agree, even on urban you could see that process happening. The left reminers established themselves as the 'progressive voice', stressed workers protection, defined free movement as a workers issue, all embodied in the EU etc. I think though the lexit argument never had a sufficient organisational base to insert itself into the debate. Part of that was the right's dominance in the official Brexit movement, but also the weakness of lexit as a significant working class movement.
 
Anju said:
OK. If you feel inclined to explain I would be interested to know what you did mean.
Click to expand...

I meant more that we have no interest in rescuing the EU (or Brexit frankly, or parliamentary prerogative or judicial reputation or any of the shit that the talking heads are getting worked up over).

None of the options on the table are in our benefit.
 
chilango said:
I meant more that we have no interest in rescuing the EU (or Brexit frankly, or parliamentary prerogative or judicial reputation or any of the shit that the talking heads are getting worked up over).

None of the options on the table are in our benefit.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the hot button issues are whether England and Scotland should wear poppies next Friday, and BBC1 reintroducing the national anthem at the end of transmission. :(
 
chilango said:
I meant more that we have no interest in rescuing the EU (or Brexit frankly, or parliamentary prerogative or judicial reputation or any of the shit that the talking heads are getting worked up over).

None of the options on the table are in our benefit.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

That is fair enough but I am not concerned with institutions. They will exist in one form or another whatever the political situation is. I was more concerned with the impact on ordinary people and that is directly affected by who is in charge of whichever institutions exist.

If you look at the framework Thatcher set up and the seemingly irreversible damage that has done over the years and then look at the situation we are in now, the power brexit has given our current government. They are using different criteria to manipulate people but the end result will be the same, irreversible damage to the few things we have left that make life bearable. All done in the name of and supported by British people.
 
Anju said:
If you look at the framework Thatcher set up and the seemingly irreversible damage that has done over the years and then look at the situation we are in now, the power brexit has given our current government. They are using different criteria to manipulate people but the end result will be the same, irreversible damage to the few things we have left that make life bearable. All done in the name of and supported by British people.
Click to expand...

And carried on by successive Labour governments too. Ironically, some of the core principles of today's EU: of improving markets, making them more competitive, opening them up to privatisation, and intervention to reform member labour markets, the EU is actually continuing Thatcher's neoliberal vision. Hence my comment earlier in the thread - the superstate is not for turning.
 
butchersapron said:
Does this have to make everyone a lawyer? Isn't the whole point not to be a fucking lawyer?
Click to expand...

its moments like brexit that all of a sudden i find myself learning how parliament works...not something ive ever been taught.
i tuned into Daily Politics yesterday for the first time in a long time to see what was being said and what i did find interesting was the number of people who could speak the constitutional talk and had strong contradictory opinions about all this.

In a way its one of those areas that divides normal people away from the political elite - the mechanisms of power too specialist and complicated for the layperson. In response to that my attitude is to want to engage with it, learn about it, understand it better, have a better understanding of where the mechanisms are in the state for exerting undemocratic power, and so on. like i said, inevitably on this thread about Process thats what much of that chat is going to be about.
bimble said:
Is Jeremy Corbyn busy on his allotment or something? The government is in turmoil, people are calling for civil war, hatred being whipped up enthusiastically on all sides, might be a good time to get involved even if it is the weekend.
Click to expand...
i think he was in Colombia yesterday (ETA; he met with the Colombian president, probably not in Colombia - go that wrong) ... agree though...he has a tendency of ignoring the news cycle.
 
Last edited:
stethoscope said:
And carried on by successive Labour governments too. Ironically, some of the core principles of today's EU: of improving markets, making them more competitive, opening them up to privatisation, and intervention to reform member labour markets, the EU is actually continuing Thatcher's neoliberal vision. Hence my comment earlier in the thread - the superstate is not for turning.
Click to expand...

The EU also wants member states to achieve economic parity, has member states with some of the fairest societies in the world and is aware of its neoliberal status. I have never seen anything from our governments of recent years explicitly mentioning neo liberalism but the EU does address this and acknowledge the problems of neoliberal economics and globalization.

I do see some of the negative aspects of the EU but if your view is that the EU is bad and unchangeable you should be working towards achieving a situation that is better. At the moment left leavers seem happy to tag along with the entirely shitty deal we are getting now, hoping it will somehow morph into something closer to their vision. To use a phrase I hate, not going to happen.
 
Anju said:
The EU also wants member states to achieve economic parity, has member states with some of the fairest societies in the world and is aware of its neoliberal status. I have never seen anything from our governments of recent years explicitly mentioning neo liberalism but the EU does address this and acknowledge the problems of neoliberal economics and globalization..
Click to expand...

Where?
 
bimble said:
ska invita you got me before i edited to appear slightly more reasoned and informed.
Click to expand...
:thumbs: nevermind eh.
anyhow labour are properly screwed over Brexit. One thing the debate in the house (if it happens) will show up in detail, speaker by speaker, is just how screwed labour are! What are they going to push for on something that has divided labour voters down the middle? Lose-lose situation by their calculations at this stage.
No wonder Corbyn is reduced to muttering vague phrases from a distance...
 
Anju said:
I just had a look but can't find the document I was reading. It was an EU paper on the effects of 2008 crash and how globalisation and neoliberal economics had been initial cause and reason for the scope and speed of collapse.
Click to expand...
That's great then. Thanks. Obviously this is the EU's policy then. Something is. Or something. That you saw.
 
Anju said:
Lots of people now seem to be looking to Keir Starmer for hope.
Click to expand...
had to google him,(Labour’s Brexit spokesman) but supposedly he's Britains Last Remaining Hope Keir Starmer: Britain’s last Remaining hope
""
In the most comprehensive explanation of his position on Brexit to date, Starmer told POLITICO that Britain’s membership of the single market will have to “lapse,” that Labour will push for “the fullest possible” tariff-free access to European markets, and that any new deal with Brussels will require Westminster to have some control over who comes to work in the U.K.

Setting a course at odds with his leader, Starmer argued that immigration has been too high and said Labour must support “some change to the way freedom of movement rules operate” as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Starmer is also open to the U.K. leaving the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice — the prime minister’s core demand — as long as another body is established to settle disputes between Britain and the EU.

In all, it suggests Labour is flexible on the practicalities of Brexit, but only within certain red lines, which the party is not prepared to cross. “If she’s out, out, out then there’s no compromise,” Starmer insisted. A total, clean break from the EU, its single market and customs union is not acceptable to him. If May does not compromise, Starmer said he sees no possibility of consensus."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

ash
Another Brexit benefit- using Wi-Fi in Europe
2
Replies
51
Views
2K
Elpenor
Elpenor
F
Brexit
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
Smokeandsteam
Smokeandsteam
Serene
So what happened to 350 million a week from brexit being put into the NHS??
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
Pickman's model
Pickman's model
editor
  • Poll
Do you want a separate Brexit forum?
2 3 4
Replies
97
Views
4K
platinumsage
platinumsage
Maggot
  • Locked
Benefits of Brexit
2 3 4
Replies
114
Views
5K
FridgeMagnet
FridgeMagnet
Back
Top Bottom