The Brexit process

[chilango]

Can people not see that this (if Brexit collapses under Parliamentary scrutiny) is the worst of both worlds?

a) We stay in the EU.

b) UKIP and nationalist populism is fuelled greater than if we'd left.

 

[Pickman's model]

After all their confusion yesterday as to how to describe those judges it seems the DM have settled on this to go to print with, nice and succinct;
View attachment 94887

What's the map like?

 

[Yossarian]

What's the map like?

 

[Sprocket.]

I am so pleased to see those bastions of justice, the Sun and the Daily Mail supporting the law and constitution.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Which bit of his speech is factually inaccurate?

Where did I say he was factually inaccurate?

Just one example will do.

Or are you building a Guy for tomorrow night?

 

[bimble]

meanwhile, in the Express..

 

[chilango]

Probably been posted but here you go:

An awful lot of bombast for essentially quoting a short paragraph from an old book.

 

[kabbes]

It doesn't mean we stay in the EU, it just means May doesn't get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. All Theresa May needs to do, and I'm not making this up, is go to the European court of human rights and say she has a pet cat.

 

[Yossarian]

meanwhile, in the Express..
View attachment 94892

Sounds like the Express believes it was the driving force behind Brexit.

There is a battle to be won. A battle that must be won. Six years ago this month the Daily Express launched its historic crusade to get Britain out of the EU.

We will not rest until that aim has been achieved and Brexit has been delivered. We know that you, our loyal readers, will be with us every step of the way.

Your country needs you more than ever because we must leave the EU. Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Over 60% of our elected representatives represent leave voters on a turn out higher than a general election

This is an artefact of consituency boundaries and not an ethical point. All 'our' MPs represent both leave and remain voters, and the latter have the same rights to representation in parliament as the former.

 

[bimble]

wow. crusade, your country needs you, rise up, it's like jingoism bingo.

But that last bit, "fight, fight, fight" it sort of lacks gravitas, that's playground talk.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

This 'reform the EU from within' is the stuff of fantasy. The superstate is not for turning.

Mind you I'm just a thicko or a racist or both it seems for voting left leave as a pro-worker, anti-capital socialist whom opposes all forms of neoliberalism. Still, the liberals will be always right.

(still battling with whether to post regularly on urban again tbh. Its not whether someone voted remain or leave in a referendum where both official camps fought on pro-capital/neoliberal grounds. Its the sneering that left the bad taste I can't get out of my mouth)

STAY. This lurker enjoys reading your stuff.

 

[DotCommunist]

incitement to riot in a winter month, what are they thinking. Far to cold for it

 

[ChrisD]

I presume the referendum results have been analysed on a constituency by constituency basis? IF each MP voted according to their local referendum result what would the House of Commons vote look like? (fortunetly MP's don't always vote according to the majority of constituents otherwise we'd still have capital punishment and anti gay laws.)

 

[pocketscience]

This is an artefact of consituency boundaries and not an ethical point. All 'our' MPs represent both leave and remain voters, and the latter have the same rights to representation in parliament as the former.

There is an ethical point to this...it offers the oppertunity for an mp to unethically vote in parliment based on his\ her personal preference, which potentially goes against the majority of their constituents preferences shown in the 'democratic' referendum.

 

[bimble]

There is an ethical point to this...it offers the oppertunity for an mp to unethically vote in parliment based on his\ her personal preference, which potentially goes against the majority of their constituents preferences shown in the 'democratic' referendum.

What about the ethical point where they vote against their own judgement just in order to try to keep their seats? Or is that just their job, I don't know.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about the ethical point where they vote against their own judgement just in order to try to keep their seats? Or is that just their job, I don't know.

fuck knows how you'd deal with people being delegates and mandated to vote in certain ways.

 

[Pickman's model]

There is an ethical point to this...it offers the oppertunity for an mp to unethically vote in parliment based on his\ her personal preference, which potentially goes against the majority of their constituents preferences shown in the 'democratic' referendum.

yeh. but the thing is that the pernicious influence of 'party' gets in the way of mps being truly representative. how many mps come from the constituency they purport to represent? how many of them owe their place in parliament more to cabal than constituents?

 

[pocketscience]

I presume the referendum results have been analysed on a constituency by constituency basis? IF each MP voted according to their local referendum result what would the House of Commons vote look like? (fortunetly MP's don't always vote according to the majority of constituents otherwise we'd still have capital punishment and anti gay laws.)

What happened there then?

What about the ethical point where they vote against their own judgement just in order to try to keep their seats? Or is that just their job, I don't know.

I think the key words here are represent and democracy. The UK runs on a democratic majority rule principle, therefore I'd expect that representing the democratic majority would be the mp's only ethical choice

 

[Pickman's model]

I presume the referendum results have been analysed on a constituency by constituency basis? IF each MP voted according to their local referendum result what would the House of Commons vote look like? (fortunetly MP's don't always vote according to the majority of constituents otherwise we'd still have capital punishment and anti gay laws.)

yeh but given the laws we've had, e.g. the local government finance act 1988, the local government finance act 1992, the criminal justice and public order act 1994, the education act 1994, the terrorism act 2000, perhaps they should listen to what their constituents think more carefully.

and what about iraq? do you think mps should have listened to their constituents over that little debacle?

 

[chilango]

It doesn't mean we stay in the EU, it just means May doesn't get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit.

Wait and see what happens.

 

[chilango]

incitement to riot in a winter month, what are they thinking. Far to cold for it

Could be an illustration of global warming though?

(((proper winters)))

 

[andysays]

It doesn't mean we stay in the EU, it just means May doesn't get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit.

May was never going to get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit, those terms will be decided through negotiation with the remaining 27 member states.

It now looks like Parliament will get some input on the UK govt's starting position in the negotiations, but no one should assume that the finally agreed terms will bear much resemblance to the starting position.

(it's also arguable that by opening the UK's negotiating position up to view before the negotiations start, they'll be weakening their ability to negotiate)

It makes far more sense, IMO, that Parliament should have to have final approval on any final deal, rather than whether to start the negotiating process at all, so this argument over process is likely to run for some time...

 

[redsquirrel]

It doesn't mean we stay in the EU, it just means May doesn't get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit.

No but more than a few have already said that MP should be block any attempt to leave. Toynbee, the LibDems, some Labourites, some on here.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

It doesn't mean we stay in the EU, it just means May doesn't get to unilaterally decide on all the terms of exit.

How will Parliament be able to influence the terms after triggering article 50? A debate prior to triggering it surely wouldn't be binding in anyway. As far as that vote goes it's surely going to come down to whether the MP wishes to respect the referendum vote or not.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Or what Andysays just said as he put it better

 

[pocketscience]

yeh. but the thing is that the pernicious influence of 'party' gets in the way of mps being truly representative. how many mps come from the constituency they purport to represent? how many of them owe their place in parliament more to cabal than constituents?

Sure, that's the beauty of this. This time it'll be so glaringly obvious, and for once it won't just a 'fringe' of the electorate , but a democratic majoriy (that includes all segments of society ranging from trade-unionists to the daily mail wielding grandma, all breathing down their necks.

 

[bimble]

(the sun front page)

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure, that's the beauty of this. This time it'll be so glaringly obvious, and for once it won't just a 'fringe' of the electorate , but a democratic majoriy (that includes all segments of society ranging from trade-unionists to the daily mail wielding grandma, all breathing down their necks.

yes. but is it a majority? on the one hand you have a plurality of votes pointing in one direction, and on the other you have at least two of the constituent parts of the united kingdom - scotland and northern ireland - pointing to remain. then you have people talking about how we need to find out more about article 50 before moving ahead with it. tbh i wouldn't be surprised if a referendum on the same question conducted today resulted in a 50.1/49.9 split. no matter what happens about half the country will be unhappy. and i wouldn't be at all surprised if we saw another dead mp within a year.