The Brexit process

[DotCommunist]

And there was me thinking that in this country at least it’s tories who have a problem with funding public services and infrastructure through wealth indexed taxation. Do you think a society can operate for the benefit of all its people if its ‘educated professionals’ won’t pay income tax? (I'm not blaming those who are rooting through bins for food). The Greek government only took half its revenue in 2012 because of tax evasion.

If you’re working, I’m sure you pay income tax, don’t you?

reverse gear is it? 'National sport', your words not mine.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you’re working, I’m sure you pay income tax, don’t you?

People earning less than £11,500 pay no income tax.

 

[Badgers]

Boris Johnson should be jailed over Brexit claims, says ex-David Davis aide

 

[kabbes]

Boris Johnson should be jailed over Brexit claims, says ex-David Davis aide

More misleading bollocks from the Guardian, given that the actual tweet said "if we had an effective electoral law leading Brexiteers would now be in jail." That's a long way from saying that somebody should be jailed given existing law.

 

[gosub]

More misleading bollocks from the Guardian, given that the actual tweet said "if we had an effective electoral law leading Brexiteers would now be in jail." That's a long way from saying that somebody should be jailed given existing law.

If we had said law David Milliband would also be there for the non referendum over the EU constitution

 

[gosub]

I agree with criticisms of the EU (and to a lesser extent IMF) in its policy towards Greece, but to accuse it of deliberately murdering civilians is a distortion which belittles what is happening to people who’re actually being tortured, shot and bombed in counties such as those I mentioned.


Brexit itself is a policy which will result in cuts in research and less funding plus staff cuts for essential services such as health and social care. That will inevitably lead to the deaths of vulnerable people in this country. So tell me, when should we start calling brexiteers “murderers”?


Brexit means... an uncertain future for the NHS?


What impact will Brexit have on the health and social care workforce?


Brexit could trigger crisis in care for older and disabled people


Except of course that’s all wrong isn’t it? We all know that the NHS will be getting an extra £350 million a week after brexit…

And there was me thinking that in this country at least it’s tories who have a problem with funding public services and infrastructure through wealth indexed taxation. Do you think a society can operate for the benefit of all its people if its ‘educated professionals’ won’t pay income tax? (I'm not blaming those who are rooting through bins for food). The Greek government only took half its revenue in 2012 because of tax evasion.


If you’re working, I’m sure you pay income tax, don’t you?

There a ring of truth in this and it’s a major reason not to let Brexit emulate Greco –EU relations. Were it do so you could easily point out UK has more than its ‘fair’share of tax dodgers, and bin divers for that matter (regrettably). You could also argue Greece behaved as if it wanted a clean break from previous ties previous administrations had got them into and a largely deaf EUorpean establishment didn’t feel inclined to play ball….

Which, I think strengthens the case for a protracted leave to mitigate against short term chaos (heaven help if the EUropean cash points were to run out or anything.) But not a reverse ferret so we can pretend democracy doesn’t matter. True, at present is reason to be deeply suspicious of a particular grain of capitalist ideology for whom “chaos is opportunity” and all they have to be is unchecked for them to have won…..the only boon from that I can see is that it would become a step towards a sensible democracy. That we have a narrow brase of political “elite” whose background and breadth of knowledge that demonstrate PPE and lack of real world work experience must be generating countless Rumsfeld’s unknowns. Unknown’s that wouldn’t be so unknown if you moved away from that type of representation…

But you are right, there should be a duty of care to try and make things as seamless as possible. It obviously won’t be, and people will pounce on any headaches, but they are not beyond minimising.

 

[hot air baboon]

there should be a duty of care to try and make things as seamless as possible.

there pretty much is in the Lisbon Treaty

EUR-Lex - 12007L/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex

 

[gosub]

Remain And Leave Voters Are Surprisingly United On Backing A Harder Brexit, According To This Study

 

[Poi E]

If so it's good news for the government as the UK can exit without a deal and not face an electorate all that irate at that fact. Perhaps May's approach of being rather less than engaged and prepared with negotiations is well thought through in its bloody mindedness.

 

[gosub]

Remain And Leave Voters Are Surprisingly United On Backing A Harder Brexit, According To This Study

now carries correction :
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.

 

[8den]

So 9 months in and the British Govt finally announce their position on the Northern Irish border.

UK to seek Irish border waivers on customs and food safety after Brexit

No customs checks, no hard border crossing, free movement, so essentially exactly as it stands now, but different. Somehow.

 

[Pickman's model]

So 9 months in and the British Govt finally announce their position on the Northern Irish border.

UK to seek Irish border waivers on customs and food safety after Brexit

No customs checks, no hard border crossing, free movement, so essentially exactly as it stands now, but different. Somehow.

tell you what, let's remove even the notional border so everything can move freely on the island of ireland and while we're about it maybe dublin could keep an eye on the 6 counties for a bit

 

[8den]

It staggers me that once again it appears May's govt are utterly clueless about the terms of the good Friday agreement.

 

[Pickman's model]

It staggers me that once again it appears May's govt are utterly clueless about the terms of the good Friday agreement.

it shouldn't do, it's not like anyone's ever described them as competent - quite the reverse in fact

 

[free spirit]

So 9 months in and the British Govt finally announce their position on the Northern Irish border.

UK to seek Irish border waivers on customs and food safety after Brexit

No customs checks, no hard border crossing, free movement, so essentially exactly as it stands now, but different. Somehow.

The difference being that once the UK starts doing deals with countries outside of the EU there will the administrative burden will fall on businesses for ensuring that any differences in import tariffs between UK and EU are corrected at the point of export to the EU.

That'd be reasonable when the same product was being imported then exported again directly to the EU, but how the fuck is that supposed to work when the imported product is only one component of a move complex finished product that's exported?

Companies are going to have to find ways to account for what proportion of the end product's value stems from imported components from countries with different tariff arrangements, and then arrange for the appropriate tax to be paid on export to the EU.

Now the UK government could legislate to apply that to UK companies, but for it to work they'd be expecting the EU to force every company in Europe to adopt the same process in reverse if they wanted to trade with the UK. That's why this approach is very unlikely to actually work in practice, because the EU aren't going to sign up to that level of increased admin burden on every exporting company in Europe just to keep the UK government happy.

 

[8den]

tell you what, let's remove even the notional border so everything can move freely on the island of ireland and while we're about it maybe dublin could keep an eye on the 6 counties for a bit

it's a slightly more coherent and well thought out plan than the current UK position and has the added bonus of being slightly cheaper (cause you don't have to bung Arlene £1b quid).

 

[8den]

The difference being that once the UK starts doing deals with countries outside of the EU there will the administrative burden will fall on businesses for ensuring that any differences in import tariffs between UK and EU are corrected at the point of export to the EU.

That'd be reasonable when the same product was being imported then exported again directly to the EU, but how the fuck is that supposed to work when the imported product is only one component of a move complex finished product that's exported?

Companies are going to have to find ways to account for what proportion of the end product's value stems from imported components from countries with different tariff arrangements, and then arrange for the appropriate tax to be paid on export to the EU.

Now the UK government could legislate to apply that to UK companies, but for it to work they'd be expecting the EU to force every company in Europe to adopt the same process in reverse if they wanted to trade with the UK. That's why this approach is very unlikely to actually work in practice, because the EU aren't going to sign up to that level of increased admin burden on every exporting company in Europe just to keep the UK government happy.

"What do we want?"

"The exact same conditions on the Northern Irish border, but yet, different somehow."

"When do we want it?"

"Soonish."

 

[cupid_stunt]

tell you what, let's remove even the notional border so everything can move freely on the island of ireland and while we're about it maybe dublin could keep an eye on the 6 counties for a bit

For a bit? Ideally forever IMO, but I don't think the north has reached the stage when that can happen yet, I am sure it will one day, sadly most likely not in my lifetime.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I am not sure that Dublin wants to take the north on board, despite the rhetoric, but that's another discussion

 

[Andrew Hertford]

now carries correction :
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.

This LSE survey has certainly been lapped up by the right wing brexit press. In fact it finds that both remainers and brexiters want low trade tariffs, (WTO tariffs anyone?) and that most remainers and even some brexiters accept that an annual payment will be necessary to continue accessing the single market. The tagline could just as easily read 'Remain and Leave voters are surprisingly united on backing a softer brexit'.

The survey also put into context here…

The truth about the claim 29 per cent of Remainers want to deport EU citizens

“Each person was presented with two menus of Brexit-related outcomes and asked to choose which one they preferred. The option of “neither” was not available.”

“What about the idea of massive public support for a hard Brexit?”
“To some extent this is based on a similar misreading of the results of the research by journalists.”

“Some newspapers reported the findings of the favourability index for propositions such as “paying nothing towards a Brexit divorce bill” (54.7 per cent among Remainers) and “full control over borders” (51.3 per cent among Remainers) as if they were raw percentages of support among the Remainer population – the same mistake as suggesting 29 per cent of Remainers back expulsion of EU nationals.”

 

[Andrew Hertford]

So 9 months in and the British Govt finally announce their position on the Northern Irish border.

UK to seek Irish border waivers on customs and food safety after Brexit

No customs checks, no hard border crossing, free movement, so essentially exactly as it stands now, but different. Somehow.

The fact that it’s even necessary to discuss putting some kind of border across the middle of a country just highlights the irrational stupidity of both brexit and of the division of Ireland.

The Irish remain overwhelmingly pro EU, even when you include those in the North, who supported Remain by 55% to 45%.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

reverse gear is it? 'National sport', your words not mine.

It’s an appropriate phrase, but not mine, which is why I put it in inverted commas…

Tax Evaders in Greece: "We Cannot Survive Otherwise" | GreekReporter.com

But you’re avoiding the point, large scale tax evasion means that a society cannot function properly. It’s beyond me how you interpret that as me blaming the poor. If it was only low earners who didn’t pay tax then obviously it wouldn’t be such a problem, but in Greece (as in most places) it was the middle classes and higher earners.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am not sure that Dublin wants to take the north on board, despite the rhetoric, but that's another discussion

They'll dam' well take what they're given

 

[not-bono-ever]

Brexit: UK looks to keep visa-free travel from EU - BBC News

So johnny forrner will have E-Z access to the UK. Sorta resolves the problem of losing the cheap labour the UK seems to demand , but without any protections or rights for those working black. I am confident however that employers will ensure they follow the right procedures for getting only legal staff on board and pay the right wages.Obvs

 

[not-bono-ever]

Theresa May under fire as student visa myth exposed

Was 100,000
Now 4,600

lolz again. so the much vaunted 100K forren student overstayer numbers being sued as a bludgeon to hammer the anti immigrant message, is complete shite. Even Gideon Osborne raised this as a concern - this was common knowledge across government as well- but May refused to take it on board, preferring the use the fabricated and baseless higher number. When someone makes Osborne look principled, they have really had to work at being utter dog shit. May is a disgusting , humor free and moral free shitcake. I fucking hate her with a passion I have no felt since Thatcher. Any chance of her dying in office to cheer me up a bit ?

 

[Streathamite]

"What do we want?"

"The exact same conditions on the Northern Irish border, but yet, different somehow."

"When do we want it?"

"Soonish."

Fintan O'Toole recently put out an excellent article pointing out precisely this. Our 'brilliant new deal' idea is basically, umm, exactly the same as before....if everything goes according to plan.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Theresa May under fire as student visa myth exposed

Was 100,000
Now 4,600

lolz again. so the much vaunted 100K forren student overstayer numbers being sued as a bludgeon to hammer the anti immigrant message, is complete shite. Even Gideon Osborne raised this as a concern - this was common knowledge across government as well- but May refused to take it on board, preferring the use the fabricated and baseless higher number. When someone makes Osborne look principled, they have really had to work at being utter dog shit. May is a disgusting , humor free and moral free shitcake. I fucking hate her with a passion I have no felt since Thatcher. Any chance of her dying in office to cheer me up a bit ?

tbf to Mrs May, the made up figures do make her argument much more forceful than the genuine figures.

 

[CrabbedOne]

On Politico EU ‘increasingly doubtful’ Brexit talks will move to phase 2 in October

...
Another EU diplomat described the papers as a “mix of good and bad.” But they objected to what they see as the U.K.’s attempt to blur the strict sequencing of the talks. “[The] U.K. tries to import phase two stuff into papers for phase one, or at least blur the lines between them.”

In the two weeks running up to the talks, the U.K. government has been bombarding its EU counterparts with a series of position papers on everything from future customs arrangements to the handling of confidential documents.

But the majority of the proposals refer to the U.K.’s future relationship with the bloc, rather than the separation issues that the EU wants to tackle first. It regards the flurry of documents from the U.K. as a distraction tactic, designed to pressure its negotiators into talking about future trade.

After Davies caved on almost the first day on the issue of sequencing and the EU27 have been very clear that trade comes after the rights of citizens. This is what you might call negotiating in bad faith or more simply very poor British negotiating tactics as the clock ticks away on a time boxed process. The Brits are trying to use issues like the Irish border to bring forward trade issues. When you have an inherently weak position in these things its best to embrace that rather than going into defiant denial. A50 is designed to favour the remaining EU states and they simply have far greater clout than the UK does. This has only got worse as Trump and to a lesser extent Brexit seem to have increased EU27 unity while May's gnat's cock majority at the last GE leaves No 10 floundering.

So far the real only real negotiation is an intra-Tory one. This is really the fatal flaw in the whole thing a party so deeply split over not just the EU but the UK's relationship with Europe was always going to have great difficulty reaching a sensible transitional compromise with the cumbersome EU27.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

I watch with a mixture of horror and guilty pleasure as the negotiations degenerate into a turd of truly awesome proportions, the problem for May and her merry band of crooks is they need something (anything!!) to point to when they call an election and say look this is what we have to offer else the only other thing they have is more years of austerity and shitting on all and sundry.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I watch with a mixture of horror and guilty pleasure as the negotiations degenerate into a turd of truly awesome proportions, the problem for May and her merry band of crooks is they need something (anything!!) to point to when they call an election and say look this is what we have to offer else the only other thing they have is more years of austerity and shitting on all and sundry.

yeah, it's great, inn'it.