The 'abolition of Parliament bill': New Labour's madness - the law-is-an-assylum

[tbaldwin]

It's not about elitism, it's about you implying things that aren't the least bit true. If you're going to attempt to criticise a political tendancy, it might be wise to clue yourself in about what people in that tendancy actually think, instead of just spouting predjudice and ignorance.

Besides anything else, the inclusion of judges in your little list actually made me laugh, I mean really, did you not think that one through at all?

Yeah yeah im totally ignorant about anarchists.... But ive written for Black Flag and two of my best mates are x members of CW and DAM now the solidarity federation. You assume that cos i dont agree with you that i must be ignorant. That is bollocks and typical of how dull and useless most anarchos are.

 

[In Bloom]

Yeah yeah im totally ignorant about anarchists.... But ive written for Black Flag and two of my best mates are x members of CW and DAM now the solidarity federation. You assume that cos i dont agree with you that i must be ignorant. That is bollocks and typical of how dull and useless most anarchos are.

Having anarchist mates means that you understand anarchism? Christ, I'll have to tell most of my mates, they neither know nor care what anarchism is about.

The point is that a lot of political theory coming from anarchists and other far left/radical/progressive (whatever you want to call it) is very critical of high ranking civil servants, judges and upper level management council employees. You said something which was factually innacurate and incredibly ignorant, you got called on it, move on for fucks sake.

 

[tbaldwin]

I like the idea of bakunin being a brand of vodka, Ice white maybe to go with some of his racist views.

 

[TeeJay]

edit: I have just read the rest of the thread* and I am not supporting tbaldwin generally but on this specific point...

Bully for you. Must be nice to be able to afford a nice little salve for your conscience

I don't see the point in sneering at people who buy fairtraded coffee...

I have just checked prices on the Tesco website. It is true that there is no fairtraded coffee in the 'budget' section only in the "freeze dried" section, but within this section it isn't actually more expensive than other brands:

for example: (all prices are for standard 100g jars)

Budget section:
Tesco 'coffee powder': £0.29
Tesco own brand: £0.98
Kenco: £1.44
Nescafe: £1.78

Freeze Dried section:
* Tesco Fair Traded: £2.24
Nescafe Gold Blend: £2.28
* Percol Fair Traded: £2.48
* Cafedirect 5065 (fairtraded): £2.57
Carte Noir: £2.68
Nescafe Alta Rica: £2.98

* = fairtraded

Given that 1g = 1 teaspoon, then we are quibbling about coffee costing between 0.29p per cup (powder) and 2.98p per cup (Nescafe Alta Rica).

I would find sneering about this laughable - especially from anyone who shells out £2.50 plus for a pint of beer on a regular basis or who spends £10 upwards on tobacco - both of which noone sneers about as being 'posh'.

*although I am trying out the "ignore" function and while not wanting to name names, let's just say this thread has maybe been a little less colourful for me than for most people here.

 

[In Bloom]

I don't see the point in sneering at people who buy fairtraded coffee...

I have just checked prices on the Tesco website. It is true that there is no fairtraded coffee in the 'budget' section only in the "freeze dried" section, but within this section it isn't actually more expensive than other brands:

for example: (all prices are for standard 100g jars)

Budget section:
Tesco 'coffee powder': £0.29
Tesco own brand: £0.98
Kenco: £1.44
Nescafe: £1.78

Freeze Dried section:
* Tesco Fair Traded: £2.24
Nescafe Gold Blend: £2.28
* Percol Fair Traded: £2.48
* Cafedirect 5065 (fairtraded): £2.57
Carte Noir: £2.68
Nescafe Alta Rica: £2.98

* = fairtraded

Given that 1g = 1 teaspoon, then we are quibbling about coffee costing between 0.29p per cup (powder) and 2.98p per cup (Nescafe Alta Rica)

I don't buy freeze dried coffee, it's a bloody con.

Also, I don't sneer at people because they buy fair trade, I just can't afford it on my budget (why just buy fair trade coffee and not fair trade clothes? In fact, why shop at supermarkets at all if you're so concerned about ethical shopping?) and don't think that it's particularly effective anyway. Basically, tbaldwin is dredging up some old argument about fair trade because he can't put his case across for the topic actually under discussion.

 

[TeeJay]

I don't buy freeze dried coffee, it's a bloody con.

I don't drink coffee powder - it tastes like shite.

Why is freeze dried coffee a "con"? Surely if someone has gone to the bother of using nice coffee beans (eg arabica) then making sure it keeps its flavour is not irrelevant?

Don't tell me you grind your own beans etc?

Also, I don't sneer at people because they buy fair trade, I just can't afford it on my budget (why just buy fair trade coffee and not fair trade clothes? In fact, why shop at supermarkets at all if you're so concerned about ethical shopping?) and don't think that it's particularly effective anyway.

I am not saying to shop at Tesco - I am just using their website to get prices from. For what its worth I currently get my 'cafedirect' fairtrade stuff from a neighbour who gets a bulk order for people in the road. I am in favour of getting fairtrade everything and anything if it is available, not just coffee - we also get our toliet paper from the same source as it happens.

I don't think that it should be seen as the only solution or an alternative to supporting political campaigns, but I do think it has some impact on the specific farmers and communities who are involved and that the success of fairtraded goods has an impact on the industry in general in that it shows the way for other producers and helps raise the bar within a sector.

I also think that people who "buy into" this kind of buying habits are more likely to support other non-consumer action that supports the same ends - in that they will feel a sense of engagement with the issue and will become more and more agtainst other factors that have an opposite and negative impact on the things that they fel they are supporting.

This isn't to say I support the idea of humans as primarily isolated "consumers" instead of being primarily "global citizens" and taking collective action.

Basically, tbaldwin is dredging up some old argument about fair trade because he can't put his case across for the topic actually under discussion.

Yeah I accept this. I just felt like discussing this because with my "ignore" on I can't really take part in the "Easter Island" grren ink debate or whatever is going on...

 

[fela fan]

I Speak To My Mp Every Week, By The Way. And Not Just My Mp Either, But Mps From Different Parties.

Some Of Them Have The Common Courtesy To Listen.

Ironically that's more than many folk on these forums. The thing is matthew, if they already know why should they listen?! And to be sure they know. That's why they sit here judging others that don't speak the way they want them to speak. People like this are a big part of the problem that you have exposed on this very welcome thread.

[It's not really about blair is it, it's about the public... keep up the good work mate]

 

[fela fan]

No, people don't listen to you because you come off as shouty, self-righteous and melodramatic. Knock it down a notch, eh?

Who the fuck are you to push your judgements onto others and how they should speak or behave?

Matthew, it's not just about tv and fame and stuff, it's also about folk in society who go round telling others how to live their lives and how to speak, what to speak, how to act, what to do who to be.

In Bloom, you should become a politician, you'd do the job fantastically.

 

[In Bloom]

I don't drink coffee powder - it tastes like shite.

Why is freeze dried coffee a "con"? Surely if someone has gone to the bother of using nice coffee beans (eg arabica) then making sure it keeps its flavour is not irrelevant?

Don't tell me you grind your own beans etc?

Doesn't taste any different to instant to me, bit stronger maybe. Will start a thread about this in suburban, cos this thread is getting really badly derailed and this is a really big subject, IMO.

TBH, I'm more of a tea man anyway

I am not saying to shop at Tesco - I am just using their website to get prices from. For what its worth I currently get my 'cafedirect' fairtrade stuff from a neighbour who gets a bulk order for people in the road. I am in favour of getting fairtrade everything and anything if it is available, not just coffee - we also get our toliet paper from the same source as it happens.

Like I say, fair enough if you can afford it, I just don't like being accused of being a hypocrite for the crime of not being as well off as tbaldwin, it's somewhat annoying, really.

 

[fela fan]

I really don't care. The principle is wrong.

I like the fact that laws are passed by all the members of parliament, after extensive public debate, not behind closed doors by individual ministers.

Which of course is what dictatorships do. Britain is headed that way...

 

[In Bloom]

Who the fuck are you to push your judgements onto others and how they should speak or behave?

Would you prefer that nobody ever criticised anybody? I was just making an observation, Matthew has come across as shouty, rude, patronising and paranoid, which probably has more to do with why people aren't inclined to listen to what he has to say than whether or not he is famous.

In Bloom, you should become a politician, you'd do the job fantastically.

Thanks, but I think that you've got the obfustication, pomposity and general arogance required for a career in politics much more finely honed than I ever will, I'm afraid

 

[fela fan]

That's not quite true. They are all accountable to their respective bosses.

The government on the other hand is directly accountable to us, the voters.

Not only can we get rid of governments, we can get rid of bosses too. We're in the massive majority, we have the ultimate power.

But at this point in history we're too consumed with the telly, celebrities, and consumption. We are not interested in exercising our power to create a better world, we are, seemingly, too comfortable.

I think it's interesting how many seem to take the high moral ground by having digs at matthew because he's not talking the right way. Like i said before, it's not really the message at all that counts, it's just the messenger and how they project their message.

Image is all, substance is too tiresome. Oh well, make your own bed and lie in it. Kudos to matthew for caring beyond his own life and ego. All those telling him what fucking language to use are pseudo-carers.

 

[fela fan]

Would you prefer that nobody ever criticised anybody? I was just making an observation, Matthew has come across as shouty, rude, patronising and paranoid, which probably has more to do with why people aren't inclined to listen to what he has to say than whether or not he is famous.


Thanks, but I think that you've got the obfustication, pomposity and general arogance required for a career in politics much more finely honed than I ever will, I'm afraid

No, that is not how he has come across at all. This is where you make a mistake. What has happened is that you have perceived it to be that way, and you deign to talk for everyone else.

The sad thing for britain is that i'm listening to him and the message he's bringing to the forum, and i don't even live in the fucking country any more. You're too concerned about how people should speak rather than the issues.

Criticise the message, for sure, but what are you achieving by concentrating on and criticising the messenger? Why should the message be broadcast in a certain way that is somehow acceptable to you and all those you are speaking for?

 

[fela fan]

I was just making an observation... (

Oh no you weren't. You were making a judgment. An observation carries no values judgment in it. The forum received your judgment on the poster based on your own values, and furthermore the forum was informed that you are speaking for other people. Hence my observation that you would make a good politician, coz that's precisely what they do.

If only people actually did do more observing and listening, instead of judging and knowing.

 

[jæd]

No, that is not how he has come across at all. This is where you make a mistake. What has happened is that you have perceived it to be that way, and you deign to talk for everyone else.

Nope -- I think *most* people think here think that Matt is a barking loonspud of the first order...!

 

[detective-boy]

Why should the message be broadcast in a certain way that is somehow acceptable to you and all those you are speaking for?

This is a common misconception amongst those who would counsel activism. That all that matters is the message and it does not matter how it is communicated.

Sadly that is totally and utterly wrong. If you want someone to hear your message you must consider their perception. If you do not they will turn off and, even if they hear your message, will ignore it because of their perception of you. If you want someone to walk with you you must make them want to and that means communicating in a way which does not instantly turn them away from the idea.

By the way, I'm not saying that you have to in that I am defining a way for you to talk and behave. I really couldn't give a toss - if you want to waste your breath that's a matter for you. I'm just suggesting that if you want to be effective you need to consider an alternative approach.

 

[fela fan]

This is a common misconception amongst those who would counsel activism. That all that matters is the message and it does not matter how it is communicated.

Sadly that is totally and utterly wrong. If you want someone to hear your message you must consider their perception. If you do not they will turn off and, even if they hear your message, will ignore it because of their perception of you. If you want someone to walk with you you must make them want to and that means communicating in a way which does not instantly turn them away from the idea.

By the way, I'm not saying that you have to in that I am defining a way for you to talk and behave. I really couldn't give a toss - if you want to waste your breath that's a matter for you. I'm just suggesting that if you want to be effective you need to consider an alternative approach.

I agree with you DB. I know very well the powerful message needs to be conveyed in a certain manner, in order to please (for want of a better word) the reader/listener (effective writers know their audience very well, and consider them at all times when writing). Language is my business! I also know that the most powerful orators are those with both the message and the method of conveying it.

However, humans are extremely gifted animals, albeit with built-in flaws. One thing i find depressingly common is that those who don't use the accepted lanaguage in discourse x or discourse y don't get heard (and often just get dissed for deigning to be different). What this in effect means is that we limit ourselves and our understandings of life according to our own prior experiences and the genre of text.

Those who learn fastest, those who become wise, are those who are prepared to listen, even to what they don't like for some reason. Often there is a great message to be heard, a nugget of wisdom. Are we to deny ourselves this by switching off if we see language we don't like for some reason?

It's compromising our path of learning mate.

 

[fela fan]

I really couldn't give a toss - if you want to waste your breath that's a matter for you. I'm just suggesting that if you want to be effective you need to consider an alternative approach.

And that's the choice isn't it. If others want to close their minds, then that's their matter. Image over substance being preferable.

And in britain these days, often image is far more important than substance, hence people ignoring the substance of what posters say if those posters don't conform to the expected and peer-enforced rules, and instead pouring their value judgments onto the poster who writes differently.

Conform or get attacked!!

 

[jæd]

And that's the choice isn't it. If others want to close their minds, then that's their matter. Image over substance being preferable.

And in britain these days, often image is far more important than substance, hence people ignoring the substance of what posters say if those posters don't conform to the expected and peer-enforced rules, and instead pouring their value judgments onto the poster who writes differently.

Conform or get attacked!!

Are you saying that people suffer from mono-thoughtism...? I'll think you'll find people have always preferred style over actual substance. Look at how popular the church is. Why have reality when you can flashy miracles and everlasting love.

 

[cybertect]

When you write to an MP, why not let us know who it is and keep us posted on their replies? If their replies are substandard, it's time for we - the citizens who pay their wages - to three line 'em.

OK. I sent an email to my MP - Tom Brake, Lib for Carshalton & Wallington expressing my support for his vote against the Bill on Feb 9th. No reply yet, but I'll keep you all posted if I get one.

On to other business. WTF is happening with this thread?

We're facing a potentially significant constitutional issue and it's come down to a discussion of Fair Trade coffee? I'm particularly partial to Cafe Direct Rich Roast (the one in the red packet) but what on earth does that have to do with the threat of government by ministerial fiat?

It may be that you say that it's all symptomatic of the inherent corruption of The System, and that we should be organising direct action to smash The System. Maybe it's because Tony Blair is actually a space alien and this is the first step in our colonisation by LGMs from a planet in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

You're entitled to your view, but any attempt to convince anyone else that this particular Bill, as currently drafted, is so vaguely worded that it poses a threat to our democracy by leaping into those arguments first is bound to fail. Attempting to hijack this particular issue to promote other, extraneous political objectives (and I'm including bitching between anarchists and socialists) is just going to cause the majority of the British public to switch off and dismiss you instantly. You won't be able to assemble any kind of consensus against the Bill if you're dragging a whole load of other baggage along with it.

If we can convey to the wider public in a clear and direct terms why this particular proposal is bad law we stand a chance of motivating them to oppose it. Muddy the waters or waste energy on factional in-fighting and we won't have a hope in hell.

 

[tbaldwin]

Like I say, fair enough if you can afford it, I just don't like being accused of being a hypocrite for the crime of not being as well off as tbaldwin, it's somewhat annoying, really.

Erm who accused you of a being a hypocrite for the crime of not being as rich as tbaldwin you bullshitter. How do you do know how well off,i am.
I bet you spend a lot more on drink than me.....

 

[fela fan]

If we can convey to the wider public in a clear and direct terms why this particular proposal is bad law we stand a chance of motivating them to oppose it. Muddy the waters or waste energy on factional in-fighting and we won't have a hope in hell.

You can't cyber, they're in the middle of a long long sleep. The dreams are of fame and consumption, and the worries are about the mountains of debt.

It's why blair is trampling over freedoms one by one. He's only doing it coz he can. If we say no, then he can't have his bill.

That's why matthew's been asking 'what's to be done'? And that is of course the first step towards a possible solution.

We might rephrase the question to, 'how can we wake those in slumberland up'? And going further back than that even, how can we shake them from their fixation with the telly and celebrities?

 

[TAE]

If you want someone to hear your message you must consider their perception.

You are right, but it works both ways.

My perception of Matthew is that he actually gives a shit. My perception of you is that you only care whether some 'procedure' is followed.
You may have some valid points, but they can get lost in your apparent complacency, as much as Matthew's points can get lost in his extreme reaction.

Personally, I think an extreme reaction is exactly what this bill deserves. THIS BILL IS COMPLETELY INSANE AND MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO BECOME LAW.

 

[fela fan]

Personally, I think an extreme reaction is exactly what this bill deserves. THIS BILL IS COMPLETELY INSANE AND MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO BECOME LAW.

And in fact that's exactly why his style on this thread is so welcome, and a complete breath of fresh air. Why?

Coz he writes from the heart and with truth on his side, and he writes WITH HIS OWN VOICE.

Part of the problem with the current state of britain is the massive amount of pressure to conform to the norm. As if anyone can own the norm, indeed to state what it is. Those who are different, or speak different will be attacked. Just look on this thread!!

Of course this is an offshoot of the american political correctness concept.

 

[TAE]

That's why matthew's been asking 'what's to be done'? And that is of course the first step towards a possible solution.

We might rephrase the question to, 'how can we wake those in slumberland up'? And going further back than that even, how can we shake them from their fixation with the telly and celebrities?

Of course the #1 priority is to increase awareness of the issue. I suggest writing to anyone you can think of who is in a position to inform others.
MPs, local party offices, newspapers & TV channels, message boards you vistit, anyone who might be interested, even your local parish church! It's astonishing how few people know about this.

If that fails, I guess we could do stuff like handing out leaflets at major train stations and of course a big national demo would be useful to highlight the issue.

 

[jæd]

And in fact that's exactly why his style on this thread is so welcome, and a complete breath of fresh air. Why?

Coz he writes from the heart and with truth on his side, and he writes WITH HIS OWN VOICE.

Part of the problem with the current state of britain is the massive amount of pressure to conform to the norm. As if anyone can own the norm, indeed to state what it is. Those who are different, or speak different will be attacked. Just look on this thread!!

Of course this is an offshoot of the american political correctness concept.

If you you're so worked up on this, then what are you doing about it....? Have you written to your MP yet...?

 

[In Bloom]

Erm who accused you of a being a hypocrite for the crime of not being as rich as tbaldwin you bullshitter. How do you do know how well off,i am.
I bet you spend a lot more on drink than me.....

I somehow doubt it, not that how much I drink is any of your business

You're really beginning to bore me, I'm not wasting any more time on this shite.

 

[In Bloom]

And in fact that's exactly why his style on this thread is so welcome, and a complete breath of fresh air. Why?

Coz he writes from the heart and with truth on his side, and he writes WITH HIS OWN VOICE.

Part of the problem with the current state of britain is the massive amount of pressure to conform to the norm. As if anyone can own the norm, indeed to state what it is. Those who are different, or speak different will be attacked. Just look on this thread!!

Of course this is an offshoot of the american political correctness concept.

It's not about conforming to the norm, it's about showing a modicum of politeness and conveying your ideas in a calm, rational way instead of screaming them at people. Can I really be blamed for finding "You won't listen to me, because I'm not a celebrity" patronising?

 

[nino_savatte]

If you you're so worked up on this, then what are you doing about it....? Have you written to your MP yet...?

He'd rather sit in Thailand and tell us all what cunts we are for living here.

 

[fela fan]

It's not about conforming to the norm, it's about showing a modicum of politeness and conveying your ideas in a calm, rational way instead of screaming them at people. Can I really be blamed for finding "You won't listen to me, because I'm not a celebrity" patronising?

Here we go again, your value judgments being projected on others. Telling them how to behave, what language to use.

Pathetic. You clean as ice are you? Ever try to clean your own house out? Or are you too busy trying to tell others how to be clean?