The 7/7 Report
- Thread starter TAE
- Start date
Prole said:
I did, as it happens. I felt it only right to read the rules before contributing to these boards.
Badger Kitten
oof
I think Prole is simply unable to grasp that the horror of death cult Islamism is real and that 4 men blew themselves up in a mass-murder suicide pact.
In which case, can I recommend some reading?
Wiki on Islamism
Sayyid Qutb
Martin Amis The Age of Horrorism
Abu Hamza and the Supporters of Sharia
http://www. al-bab.com /yemen/hamza/hamza1.htm"
Militant Groups in the UK
The Saved Sect site ( latest, as theiur last one was banned)
http:// www. allaahuakbar. net/scholars/jameel_zeeno/saved_sect.htm
<ed: URL brokens, just in case>
Saved Sect on answers.com
The saved sect on wiki. This last one gives some interesting information. Here an extract on some key members:
Note to ed: please let me know if you want me to edit and break the links. I think they are relevant, but you may wish not to be linked to U75.
In which case, can I recommend some reading?
Wiki on Islamism
Sayyid Qutb
Martin Amis The Age of Horrorism
Abu Hamza and the Supporters of Sharia
http://www. al-bab.com /yemen/hamza/hamza1.htm"
Militant Groups in the UK
The Saved Sect site ( latest, as theiur last one was banned)
http:// www. allaahuakbar. net/scholars/jameel_zeeno/saved_sect.htm
<ed: URL brokens, just in case>
Saved Sect on answers.com
The saved sect on wiki. This last one gives some interesting information. Here an extract on some key members:
Note to ed: please let me know if you want me to edit and break the links. I think they are relevant, but you may wish not to be linked to U75.
What exactly is the problem in your opinion?BK said:
'The problem' that you appear to be referring to seems to differ little from that espoused by the White House neo-cons.
I expect that there are boards like that BK, as there are right-wing boards, but these are often just powerless kids who are angry. Undoubtedly with the odd white-convert to Islam thrown into the mix to 'stir-it up'. Or those 'protected' by the intelligence forces such as Abu Hamza and Abu Abdullah. Read Nafeez's book to get a sense of this complicity.
Not everything can be taken at face-value BK and getting to the truth often involves wading around in muck that none of us would wish or even expect to find.
It isn't safe or comfortable and it leads to conclusions and understandings of the world that are not cosy and comfortable. Examine post-WWII history. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile and on and on. the world may not be the place that you so fervently wish it to be and the real enemies of liberty and freedom the very people you trust to protect you.
Are you saying that the 4 accused of the 'suicide-bombing' in London were members of this sect? Have you ever come across any proof that they were linked to any so-called 'extremist' islamic groups? If so, which ones?Badger Kitten said:
There is a death-cult, BK, that murders and slaughters on a grand scale, and it wasn't defeated in WWII. It may well be behind the destruction in NY of it's own people on 11/9. Who should we really fear?
Badger Kitten
oof
Prole, do you accept that such a thing as Islamism exists, that it has a set of beliefs, one of which is martyrdom by suicide?
Yes or no?
If yes, do you beleive that there are people in the UK who espuse Islamist beliefs, one of which is martyrdom by suicide?
Yes or no?
We will leave your feeble attempt to paint me as a neocon until you ahve answered this question. As it is a straight question, I doubt that you will answer it. But you may surprise me.
Over to you.
And please do me a favour: read the links.
I have read all yours.
It is a courtesy, and any serious researcher will have no problem examining relevant material with an open mind
Yes or no?
If yes, do you beleive that there are people in the UK who espuse Islamist beliefs, one of which is martyrdom by suicide?
Yes or no?
We will leave your feeble attempt to paint me as a neocon until you ahve answered this question. As it is a straight question, I doubt that you will answer it. But you may surprise me.
Over to you.
And please do me a favour: read the links.
I have read all yours.
It is a courtesy, and any serious researcher will have no problem examining relevant material with an open mind
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
He's now posted what seems like a very reasonable response after mine...Bernie Gunther said:
http://nafeez.blogspot.com/2006/09/censored-urban75-forum-bans-british.html#115788789074882112
This is exactly why I, and I suspect, many others find you so fucking annoying. You raised this ages ago. You were told that it hasn't been changed because the MPS does not change it's Press Releases. It MAY release update ones or it may not, depending on the need. They are NOT definitive statements of the MPS understanding of the situation now.Prole said:
You choose to ignore that fact because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived ideas. You haven't tried to argue that what you have been told is wrong (because you can't). You just ignore it. You are tedious in the fucking extreme, like most of your conspiraloon mates.
FridgeMagnet said:
Doesn't that just boil down to him saying that he would post in a reasonable manner but he doesn't have the time to d it. So, if he were to post it wold be swathes of c+p stuff anyway because he likes to "stimulate debate" and return to it afterwards...
detective-boy said:
Yep, and does Prole continue to think her postings are going to change anyones opinions of her or convince anyone of her theorries...?
The only thing that changes when she posts is that people take less and less seriously, and inch closer to calling up for medical services to take her away...!
Oh the simple yes/no approach I see. No such thing as complexity here. I notice you failed to answer any of my questions, such as were the 4 accused of 7/7 involved in any of these sects.
I accept that suicide-bombing is a strategy employed in the occupied terrotories, yes. An interesting book was recently published examining this phenomenon:
"In the real world, the struggle is not "elemental" but merely political. Robert Pape, author of the forthcoming book, Dying to Win: Why Suicide Terrorists Do It, writes:
"Researching my book, which covered all 462 suicide bombings around the globe, I had colleagues scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and biographies of the Hizbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. We were shocked to find that only eight were Islamic fundamentalists; 27 were from leftist political groups such as the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union; three were Christians, including a female secondary school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.
"What these suicide attackers - and their heirs today - shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation." (Pape, 'What we still don't understand about Hizbollah,' )
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1838199,00.html
People believe all kinds of things. Kamikazi pilots committed suicide in war, and they were not islamists. Many resistance movements undertake 'suicidal' missions, knowing they will probably be killed. It's complex.
I take it you read this link, which mirrors your understanding that CT's are part of the reason for terrorism?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/sectionV.html
I answer the ones that i am able to, I suspect you don't like my answers.
Badger Kitten said:
I accept that suicide-bombing is a strategy employed in the occupied terrotories, yes. An interesting book was recently published examining this phenomenon:
"In the real world, the struggle is not "elemental" but merely political. Robert Pape, author of the forthcoming book, Dying to Win: Why Suicide Terrorists Do It, writes:
"Researching my book, which covered all 462 suicide bombings around the globe, I had colleagues scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and biographies of the Hizbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. We were shocked to find that only eight were Islamic fundamentalists; 27 were from leftist political groups such as the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union; three were Christians, including a female secondary school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.
"What these suicide attackers - and their heirs today - shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation." (Pape, 'What we still don't understand about Hizbollah,' )
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1838199,00.html
People believe all kinds of things. Kamikazi pilots committed suicide in war, and they were not islamists. Many resistance movements undertake 'suicidal' missions, knowing they will probably be killed. It's complex.
I take it you read this link, which mirrors your understanding that CT's are part of the reason for terrorism?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/sectionV.html
I answer the ones that i am able to, I suspect you don't like my answers.
Did you watch the Bush video I posted a link to, claiming he saw the first plane hit the tower before going into the classroom? What did you think of it?
Prole.Badger Kitten said:
Urban75's first suicide poster ...
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Prole: Avoiding the question since 12/2005.
Just 1000 years to go then, and you'll have 0.1% of the (current population of the UK) ... Not just cranks. Not just obsessives. Oh, no! A real groundswell of opinion.Prole said:
And that is not even taking into account that many more poeple would subsribe to a request for greater release of evidence at some appropriate stage that would subscribe to your ridiculous, fact-free fantasies.
Research???Badger Kitten said:
The mad cow couldn't even fucking spell research ...
To be fair, that's pretty true. Even to the point of them being the same fucking words most of the time ...Prole said:
Badger Kitten
oof
There is a problem with a particular extremist movement that teaches young peopel to kill themselves and others. It poses as a religion, but it is not Islam. It can be found in one form or another all over the world and where it has local differences, it pulls together against a common enemy, the West's foreign policy and extraplated against that, what it sees as consumerist decadence. It is drowning out real Islam's many voices in the amount of noise it makes, and it thrives on paranioa, disaffection, anger at the West, especially when the West does appalling things in the Middle East. The news beamed into our front rooms showing appalling suffering, and the unfairness of our foreign policy helps to make its case for it and recruit for it. We are losing our best asset, our freedoms and the moral high ground with the bloody aftermath of Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, clusterbombing of civilians, clamoing down on civil liberties, apolcalyptic language and other evils.
Nonetheless, our appalling acts do not excuse or explain their appalling acts; it is a dreadful thing to teach youngsters that killing themselves and murdering others will lead to Paradise, that all non-extremist Muslims are evil, that Jews are inhuman, that people deserve to be slaughtered like animals.
And this is what this potent death cult philosophy preaches. The 4 men who killed in London were recruits to it and beleivers in it. They saw themselves as shaheed, fighting for the Ummah. They gained celebrity martyr status, a fast track to Paradise, an eternal hereafter of sex and decadence that they were not allowed in this life. Or so they thought.
You have an internet connection; you can see for yourself that this thinking is real. You can go and talk to people who espouse it. Most people who read it or come into contact with it do not choose to take the path that leads to mass murder. But some do, and MSK et al did.
The situation is complex as there have been instances of Western security forces positing that ''my enemies ememy is my friend'' and working with such groups and their recruits for short term ends, as in Bosnia in the 1990's . This is covered by Nafeez in his books ( by the way, you know I not only read his books but gave a speech with him, Prole?)
Nonetheless, to take from this that all Islamic extremist groups are mere chimera created by Western agents provcateurs is wrong. They exist, and they are diametrically opposed to Western democracy which they see as forbidden, the education of women, freedom of religion, the existence of Israel....
The neocons have a tendency to frame all this as a clash of civilisations, to fail to see that their foreign policy inflames the jihadi cause, to conflate Islam with terror, to nakedly profit from war, to see the thing in terms of an apocalyptic fight which chimes with their own religious zealotry, to side with Israel even when it acts unfairly, to perform appalling acts in the name of ''freedom'' and ''self defence'', to obfuscate, to refuse to examine the well- spring causes of such terror, to give it maximum publicity and to use it to clamp down on civil liberties. They also conflate all Islamic extremists as being part of a unified movement, when they are not. Often what they fight for is local, territorial, or sectarian.
That I recognise such groups exist, that I have been on the recieving end of an Islamist attack and that I abhor their deathcult philosophy does not make me a ''neocon'', and that argument is not even bothering with as it is laughable.
However, one thing that is an uncomfortable truth is that conspiracy theories about the evils of Western governments, that paint the world in apolcalyptic terms as if we are all dupes of an evil Power That Is are meat and drink to those recruited into such groups, and help to form part of the paranoic, angry thinking that in some, few cases, leads to the delusion that self-murder taking sheeple with you, is a legitimate act against the shadowy forces of the oppressive world order that feeds on Muslim blood.
And in a small way, your bollocks site and paraniod worldview do nothing for truth and justice, apply no pressure to the Government to cease endangering us by pursuing an unfair foreign policy, but instead offers no hope at all.
Which is why I protest for civil liberties, point out that you can be a victim of terror without hating Muslims, refuse to buy into the propoganda and call for an independent inquiry into the reasons for, and path to, and reaction to 7/7.
Badger Kitten
oof
Yes, Prole, they were.
EDIT: MSK was involved in several extremist sects. I am trying to get you to accept that such extremist groups existed, and continue to exist in the UK.
Fucking hilarious!Prole said:
You recognise that people are getting increasingly pissed off / frustrated / annoyed by conspiracy theory bollocks ... but you don't see that it is YOU and those like YOU who are actually causing that to happen! You really, really are one of the most stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Stop! Prole is not responsible for the results of her actions, she said so!detective-boy said:Fucking hilarious!
You recognise that people are getting increasingly pissed off / frustrated / annoyed by conspiracy theory bollocks ... but you don't see that it is YOU and those like YOU who are actually causing that to happen! You really, really are one of the most stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.
No competent salesman would come to U75 selling penis enlargement devices ... the place has more than enough big pricks already ...Jazzz said:
Badger Kitten
oof
I need to see if you will even accept that Islamic terror groups exist in the UK before we can even have a serious conversation, because if you don't, you are a flat-earther and there is no point continuing to try to talk with you.
I have just written you a long reply, and I wonder what you think of it?
That I would like you to say yes/no to the question: are there Islamic groups in the UK who espouse suicide martyrdom operations is a fair question.
It appears that you will not accept that groups exist, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I suspect if you were able to accept that they exist, your whole ''bombers were innocent theory'' would fall over, so you won't go there. Which is precisely why I asked the question.
Do you accept that they exist in the UK? Not the Middle East, we are discussing 7/7. Do suicide bombing-espousing Islamic extremist groups exist in the UK?
In the UK, yes or no?
Dunno about 12/2005 ... she's probably been doing it since fucking 1205!Bob_the_lost said:
Badger Kitten
oof
Prole seem unable to accept that Islamic extremist groups exist in the UK, and that some of them advoate suicide 'martyrdom' operations.
However the existence of such groups can be proved.
She does not seem able or willing to accept this.
This is because her theory that the bombers were innocent would be devastatingly undermined if she were able to accept the reality of Islamic extremist groups who advocate suicide bombings in the UK.
If she ever comes back, I suggest she gives a straight answer to the question: do you accept, Prole, that Islamic groups, comprised of British Islamists and which advocate suicide bombing as a strategy against the Kuffr, (abroad or in the UK) , exist in the UK, or not?
Expect much wriggling, and a series of questions, accusations, strawmen, and a total inability to answer yes, or no.
However the existence of such groups can be proved.
She does not seem able or willing to accept this.
This is because her theory that the bombers were innocent would be devastatingly undermined if she were able to accept the reality of Islamic extremist groups who advocate suicide bombings in the UK.
If she ever comes back, I suggest she gives a straight answer to the question: do you accept, Prole, that Islamic groups, comprised of British Islamists and which advocate suicide bombing as a strategy against the Kuffr, (abroad or in the UK) , exist in the UK, or not?
Expect much wriggling, and a series of questions, accusations, strawmen, and a total inability to answer yes, or no.
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