The 2011 Census, good or bad?

[moon23]

What about doing the opposite. Think about that. Decide if you have principles or no. Does your get-out cover doing the exact opposite of what your manifesto declares or not?

I'm not happy about having to discard massive chunks of the manifesto, but the Lib Dems didn't win the election. Locally my party is in a coalition with Labour and has been working to ensure the budget it passes has a minimum impact on front line services.

There is a difference between not having any principles, and being prepared to sacrifice principles to achieve a workable political compromise.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't support the systematic dismantling of the welfare state, I think there should be a basic safety net for everyone. This should include state health insurance, and basic benefits for the unemployed. Those with genuine disabilities (as opposed to all the people faking bad backs, or depression) should be given enough money to have an enjoyable standard of living.

Who are "all the people faking bad backs, or depression"? What are their numbers and how have you arrived at the conclusion that they're faking?

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not happy about having to discard massive chunks of the manifesto, but the Lib Dems didn't win the election. Locally my party is in a coalition with Labour and has been working to ensure the budget it passes has a minimum impact on front line services.

There is a difference between not having any principles, and being prepared to sacrifice principles to achieve a workable political compromise.

Fuck you have well and truly drank the kool-aid haven't you.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not happy about having to discard massive chunks of the manifesto, but the Lib Dems didn't win the election. Locally my party is in a coalition with Labour and has been working to ensure the budget it passes has a minimum impact on front line services.

There is a difference between not having any principles, and being prepared to sacrifice principles to achieve a workable political compromise.

Answer my question.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Every part of a parties manifesto is a promise to the electorate, in a coalition the smaller partner can't expect to implement it all. I do think the coalition agreement was badly negotiated, and should have taken into special account the tution fees problem.

"We made those promises when we had no idea we might be in a position to implement them"

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not happy about having to discard massive chunks of the manifesto, but the Lib Dems didn't win the election.

Well, no party won the election. But the Tories (who don't have a mandate) are being supported by a party that's desperately seeking a mandate (which will never happen). Ya see what's happening here?

As Gil Scott-Heron once said "Well, the first thing I wanna say is 'mandate, my ass'".

 

[ViolentPanda]

For that matter, a bad back can be utterly debilitating and is something that genuinely happens to an awful lot of people. Dismissing them as "fakes" reveals the utter contempt moon23 has for the population at large. And yet he wants us to happily engage in chitchat with him on his terms. Fuck that.

I've got a mate who's a diagnostic radiographer for a large healthcare trust in north London (well, no-one is perfect!), and they get quite a lot of referrals for scans from occupational health doctors employed by large companies, with "bad backs" being the most usual problem to be addressed. He reckons that around 80-85% of the "bad back" cases he screens have noticeable pathology, whether that be disc or vertebral damage, bone spurs or fragments pressing on nerves, or chronic tissue damage that has resulted in scar tissue forming. He also reckons about half of this is suffered by people who work in offices, because a majority of companies still can't be bothered to follow basic ergonomic layout principles, or pay for decent seating.

Moon is a twat, a gobby twat spewing all the old prejudiced bollocks that neo-libs eject from their mouths in order to validate their misanthropy or selfishness.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You read what it's symptoms are and observe the behaviour of people who are depressed. You then mimetic these symptoms when talking to any health professional.

Depression is a differential diagnosis. A diagnostician reaches their conclusion by noting many varied behaviours over a course of time. They're not often taken in by mimics.
Of course, I suspect you think it's GPs being fooled. Well, that's possibly why GPs end up referring a majority of their depression diagnoses up the food chain to consultant psychiatrists for appraisal. They're even less easily-fooled than GPs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Out of all the people I have known on the dole I'd say at least 20% of them were on the fiddle faking some illness.

If you're ill, you're by default not "on the dole", you're "on the sick".

 

[Streathamite]

Not just psychiatrists, but any health professional.

very true!

 

[invisibleplanet]

Oh FFS! YOUR PARTY made a complete,unequivocal pledge. got 80% of the student vote off the back of that pledge-then broke it. Just as completely.Disgraceful dishonesty.

Jup

 

[ViolentPanda]

Kabbes it's like fraud, you only know about what is detected.

In which case I suggest you apprise yourself of the fraud levels detected by the DWP, which show that your "20%" is a massive over-estimate. Quantified fraud is less that 1% once clerical error by DWP staff is ruled out.

 

[nino_savatte]

I can't believe the Tories and their apologists are still trotting out that line about benefit fraud. <shakes head>

 

[ViolentPanda]

Every part of a parties manifesto is a promise to the electorate...

No, a manifesto is a proposal for a programme. You're mistaking manifestos for pledges made in manifestos.

in a coalition the smaller partner can't expect to implement it all. I do think the coalition agreement was badly negotiated, and should have taken into special account the tution fees problem.

What is implementable is limited only by the courage of the junior party.

I also think it's hugely unfair to blame Lib Dems for tuition fees...

You're not being "blamed for tuition fees", you're being blamed for the raising (up to triple the current rates) of the fees, and you're being blamed because not only didn't you resist the Conservative policy, but you'd already decided to resile from your pledge before the election, even though you still campaigned as though you remained in support of your pledge. people loathe two-facedness.

....when they were introduced by Labour, the Browne report was commissioned by Labour, and the Conservatives wanted to raise them. The Lib Dems have opposed tuition fees, but in going into coalition had to compromise. In making that compromise I believe the party has ensured that the system we now have is fairer then it would have been. .

You didn't compromise, you surrendered your principles without an argument.

 

[kyser_soze]

Quantified fraud is less that 1% once clerical error by DWP staff is ruled out

And how many people does that equate to?

Incidentally, I don't believe that 1% figure is remotely accurate. The official NHS estimate for fraud is 3.4% of total budget, whereas the company who spend their time investigating NHS fraud reckon it's closer to 10%, split about 30/60 between patients scamming and NHS employees (timesheet & prescription fraud being the most commonly found).

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how many people does that equate to?

IIRC the figures, taken over 3 years, averaged about 80,000-120,000 claimants of all benefits excluding HB and CTB.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how many people does that equate to?

Incidentally, I don't believe that 1% figure is remotely accurate. The official NHS estimate for fraud is 3.4% of total budget, whereas the company who spend their time investigating NHS fraud reckon it's closer to 10%, split about 30/60 between patients scamming and NHS employees (timesheet & prescription fraud being the most commonly found).

Why would I be interested in what you believe?

Remember Osborne's "£5 billion annual benefit fraud shocker!" that had to be revised down to £1 billion once they removed agency error?

 

[nino_savatte]

The Honourable Gideon is a bit shit with numbers - isn't he?

 

[kyser_soze]

There isn't a single mandarin in any of the depts that have been associated with the Welfare State who would ever commission a real report on the extent of fraud. It'd be like the situation at the MoD at the moment.

I mean seriously - where's the mileage in actually finding this out? The minister/mandarin involved would end up holding the wrong end of a shitty stick, you'd still have no agreement on the figures - moon types would say it's too low, not properly done, yourselves would say it's been massively overstated blah blah blah.

 

[_angel_]

The Honourable Gideon is a bit shit with numbers - isn't he?

an outright liar more like

 

[ViolentPanda]

There isn't a single mandarin in any of the depts that have been associated with the Welfare State who would ever commission a real report on the extent of fraud. It'd be like the situation at the MoD at the moment.

At the moment? The MoD has always been verging on complete collapse because of poor procedure, let alone the volume of fraud!

I mean seriously - where's the mileage in actually finding this out? The minister/mandarin involved would end up holding the wrong end of a shitty stick, you'd still have no agreement on the figures - moon types would say it's too low, not properly done, yourselves would say it's been massively overstated blah blah blah.

Yeah, but frankly moon is an ill-informed party-political twatmonkey, so...

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Ours is in the bin. Fuck their census.

 

[shagnasty]

Did mine online ,A lot of work related questions ,which i am sure the tories will use as a weapon against the poor

 

[xes]

Can';t be asred to read the thread, have we done the Lockheed Martin thing yet?

 

[Ranbay]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=134600319943583&set=o.109241892488996&ref=nf

 

[kyser_soze]

At the moment? The MoD has always been verging on complete collapse because of poor procedure, let alone the volume of fraud!

True, but it's never been as out in the open as it is at the moment.

 

[xes]

what do they do with this information that unsettles you Trev?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/19/census-boycott-lockheed-martin

Why do an arms manufacturers want our census?

 

[kyser_soze]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/19/census-boycott-lockheed-martin

Why do an arms manufacturers want our census?

They aren't getting our census. They're being paid to run and manage the collection & collation of the data from the Census forms, and that's it.

 

[xes]

So they're not "getting" our census, just all the data from it? Is that not the same thing?

 

[kyser_soze]

They don't get the data from the Census either. They're collecting & collating it, and that's the end of their involvement. All the actual analysis is being carried out by the ONS. As an overseas organisation, they're not allowed to own UK census data.

Census data and the US Patriot Act
Concerns expressed about the possibility of the US Patriot Act being used by US intelligence services have been addressed by a number of additional contractual and operational safeguards. These arrangements have been put in place to ensure to that US authorities are unable to access census data.

Existing law already prevents the disclosure of census data – it is a criminal offence to disclose personal census data and is punishable by a fine and/or up to two years in prison.

All census data is owned by ONS and all of the legal undertakings of confidentiality of personal Census information will apply to both ONS and any contractors.

All census employees and contractors working on the census sign a declaration of confidentiality to guarantee their understanding and compliance with the law.

All staff who have access to the full census data set in the operational data centre will work for ONS.

Contractual arrangements ensure that only sub-contractors registered and based in the UK and either UK or EU owned will have access to any personal census data.

Staff with access to the full census data set or substantial parts of it will have security clearance to handle material classified as ‘Secret’ under the UK Government’s classifications.

The prime contractor is Lockheed Martin UK Ltd. Additional specialist services will be provided by Cable & Wireless, Logica, UK Data Capture, bss, Steria, Polestar, Oracle and Royal Mail. Lockheed Martin UK will design the processing systems for ONS using its expertise and past experience. The day to day running of operational services will be provided by the consortium of specialist service providers. All of these specialist subcontractors are registered and owned in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

This contractual structure means that no US companies will have any access to any personal census data.

No Lockheed Martin staff (from either the US parent or UK company) will have access to any personal census data.

All data will be processed in the UK and remain in the UK.

From here:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/census/2011-c...ject/census-data-security-measures/index.html