Teachers - "British values" and all that

[chilango]

So should we have school uniforms? And am I right in saying that in Germany they don't have them or have I got my wires crossed?

No we shouldn't have (mandatory) school uniforms.

 

[MickiQ]

Not having uniforms is one of those ideas that sounds good but it immediately marks out those kids whose parents have money to spend on the latest designer gear and those that don't. Not so much for primary school but very different when they get into secondary which is where status gets important and kids start to notice this. Expensive mandatory uniforms with badges maybe not but there is definitely a case for a dress code ideally one that could be met on a modest budget without it being obvious.

 

[chilango]

Not having uniforms is one of those ideas that sounds good but it immediately marks out those kids whose parents have money to spend on the latest designer gear and those that don't. Not so much for primary school but very different when they get into secondary which is where status gets important and kids start to notice this. Expensive mandatory uniforms with badges maybe not but there is definitely a case for a dress code ideally one that could be met on a modest budget without it being obvious.

There's, akaik, no evidence for this. What there is evidence for (...and I know this 'cos I've gathered it) is that a) Even with uniforms you can still easily distinguish between those with money and those withou and b) Uniform is more likely to be imposed upon w/c kids than posh ones.

 

[killer b]

Not having uniforms is one of those ideas that sounds good but it immediately marks out those kids whose parents have money to spend on the latest designer gear and those that don't.

Mate, the kids all know this anyway.

 

[Elpenor]

I don’t think I liked school uniform per se but I liked not having to worry about what to wear. The same with office attire tbh.

May explain why when I wear mufti at weekends I look so badly dressed though

 

[BillRiver]

I think having a uniform is quite a good idea but it should be supplied free of charge (ie paid for with taxes) all from the same supplier, so it is truly uniform, and it should not be gendered, and most of all it should be comfortable.

 

[chilango]

I think having a uniform is quite a good idea but it should be supplied free of charge (ie paid for with taxes) all from the same supplier, so it is truly uniform, and it should not be gendered, and most of all it should be comfortable.

Why do you think it's a good idea? What benefits would it bring?

 

[BillRiver]

Why do you think it's a good idea? What benefits would it bring?

It would prevent poor kids being shamed by their lack of the latest in fashion, the way I was. There was a uniform of sorts at my school but there was a lot of leeway allowed which meant some of the other kids wore designer clothes and had obviously new outfits every term

It's also helpful for parents - my niece wore a uniform at her primary school while she lived with me and it made our mornings much smoother as it reduced decision-making.

 

[chilango]

It would prevent poor kids being shamed by their lack of the latest in fashion, the way I was. There was a uniform of sorts at my school but there was a lot of leeway allowed which meant some of the other kids wore designer clothes and had obviously new outfits every term

Again, afaik, there's no evidence to support this. Uniforms do not prevent kids (or teachers) from knowing who is poor and who is not.

The "designer" thing is also way overblown IME. Having taught rich kids in schools with no uniform policy I've never witnessed it as a big thing. If there's no novelty in it kids ended wearing a) what was comfortable and b) what they felt suited them. Sometimes it was designer gear but more usually not.

 

[chilango]

More importantly.

Instead of trying to hide structural inequality beneath a uniform, perhaps we should try and take it on?

 

[chilango]

Don't give poorer parents some shit subsidized uniform, give them money to buy proper clothes for their kids.

 

[chilango]

Also, according to my research, private schools make much less of a fuss about uniforms than state schools do.

It's what Bourdieu called "symbolic violence". It's never posh white boys getting sent home for not dressing up is it?

 

[chilango]

Apologies if I get a bit "ranty" about this. It's my thing.

 

[BillRiver]

All good points.

But...

Kids I went to (comprehensive) school with who were wearing designer labels weren't posh or rich, most of them lived in council flats and came from a working class background, but their parents had more disposable income than mine.

There's no evidence because I don't think it's ever been done, not the way I described.

 

[maomao]

Not having uniforms is one of those ideas that sounds good but it immediately marks out those kids whose parents have money to spend on the latest designer gear and those that don't. Not so much for primary school but very different when they get into secondary which is where status gets important and kids start to notice this. Expensive mandatory uniforms with badges maybe not but there is definitely a case for a dress code ideally one that could be met on a modest budget without it being obvious.

Firstly, it's a minority if countries that impose school uniforms on kids. The vast majority of the world manages fine without.

Secondly, if it we must have school uniform can't we have something more practical and comfortable (I don't find the Chinese tracksuit model quite so offensive).

And finally, there's a lot of school uniform in porn. I think that says it all. Stupid fucking blazers, ties and little skirts to turn grown ups on.

First thing I did when I left school was burn my tie. It's ridiculous and should stop now.

 

[Argonia]

I remember when my headmaster bollocked me for having brown laces instead of black ones in my shoes and I realised at that moment that my school was mentally ill.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not having uniforms is one of those ideas that sounds good but it immediately marks out those kids whose parents have money to spend on the latest designer gear and those that don't. Not so much for primary school but very different when they get into secondary which is where status gets important and kids start to notice this. Expensive mandatory uniforms with badges maybe not but there is definitely a case for a dress code ideally one that could be met on a modest budget without it being obvious.

This argument works only in a world where it's not painfully obvious in a thousand other ways which kids come from rich families and which from poor ones. Only actually reducing inequality will reduce inequality.

E2a: Or what everyone else said already. Basically you're chatting mealy mouth bullshit.

 

[maomao]

I remember when my headmaster bollocked me for having brown laces instead of black ones in my shoes and I realised at that moment that my school was mentally ill.

I got sent home by the head of upper school for having white socks on. I told him I wouldn't come back if he sent me home so I basically got a day off.

 

[Argonia]

I shaved my head grade 0 and got a jolly nice week off.

 

[BillRiver]

I remember when my headmaster bollocked me for having brown laces instead of black ones in my shoes and I realised at that moment that my school was mentally ill.

Not mentally ill. Just wrong.

Says me, a genuinely mentally ill person.

 

[Argonia]

Not mentally ill. Just wrong.

Says me, a genuinely mentally ill person.

Fair enough. Point taken.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What about the kids making it a 'sex thing' and they will because teenagers are god awful creatures that will push boundaries just for the hell of it.

So, talking about what's best for kids one minute and expressing utter contempt for them the next. Nice.

 

[philosophical]

Such a complex area is all this, in the broadest sense.
Of many ideas that occur to me is the question as to whether schooling and education are the same thing, and where there may be an overlap.
I see enforcing uniform as more in the schooling domain than the educational one.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I remember when my headmaster bollocked me for having brown laces instead of black ones in my shoes and I realised at that moment that my school was mentally ill.

Or just that delightful combination of stupid, unpleasant and possessed of a small amount of power over people he doesn't like.

We've got one of them at my school. He had the fucking nerve to do a CPD lecture about how all the kids have needs and circumstances that will affect their behaviour and how we all have to be gentle and kind, the day after he'd bowled up in my tutor room and screamed right in the faces of two of my year 7 kids. I guess he skipped his own lecture and so doesn't get that many kids will already have far too much experience of adults losing control of their shit and taking it out on them, and will have hardwired responses to such behaviour, none of which will be good. If I ran the school one outburst like that in front of a kid and you'd be out the fucking door before you could collect your mug from the staff room. And I'd do everything in my power to salt the earth so that you never worked with kids again.

 

[maomao]

Not having a uniform doesn't mean you can't have a dress code by the way. If name brand trainers and tracksuits are proving divisive, ban them. You don't have to wear a stupid fucking blazer and garish tie to achieve that.

 

[Edie]

Not having a uniform doesn't mean you can't have a dress code by the way. If name brand trainers and tracksuits are proving divisive, ban them. You don't have to wear a stupid fucking blazer and garish tie to achieve that.

Kids will find the tiniest ways to show they have more status. Shoes, rucksacks, brand of black coat. You can’t stop it. Just like adults, signalling social status is hardwired.

 

[bimble]

my school had one day a year that was non uniform day, i fucking hated it. I wore the wrong trousers one time when i was 12 or something, just because i had no idea about clothes & their meanings, and had the piss taken so badly i still remember it now. Maybe if it had been non uniform day every day it would have been less bad idk.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Just like adults, signalling social status is hardwired.

Lol no, it's learned behaviour due to the inexorable pressures of capitalism

 

[Sasaferrato]

There's, akaik, no evidence for this. What there is evidence for (...and I know this 'cos I've gathered it) is that a) Even with uniforms you can still easily distinguish between those with money and those withou and b) Uniform is more likely to be imposed upon w/c kids than posh ones.

Eton, Harrow and Fettes.

 

[maomao]

Kids will find the tiniest ways to show they have more status. Shoes, rucksacks, brand of black coat. You can’t stop it. Just like adults, signalling social status is hardwired.

Which is why uniform is so pointless.

I meant divisive in the sense of kids getting mugged for their tariners and stuff.

The school where I currently work has a very lax uniform policy and I've been very impressed by it so far. Lots of school t-shirts and sweatshirts etc. Kids in jogging pants. Then on Wednesday I got told that in September, when covid is 'gone', uniform rules will go 'back to normal' and teachers will be inspecting uniforms before allowing kids in the class. What a load of bollocks.