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Tax return blues - would a bit of solidarity help?

"We use ‘business’ in this guidance to refer to both self-employed businesses and the collection of property income by landlords."

Of course there are people who are not self-employed and have no property income who currently need to complete a self-assessment return. However they don't specify what will happen to these people when the SA return is replaced.
 
I don't know if I am worrying too preemptively, but this looks like an absolute clusterfuck waiting to happen.
What is not 'digital' about the current version.

Or

Are they simply saying that tax forms etc submitted by post will not longer be available, and making it sound more complicated by mentioning all the third party software?

Or

Are they doing away with the digital version that looks like the sheet they send out?
That always seemed a bit out of date anyway. . . but it works doesn't it? Why not keep the HMRC version? The third party software will have to integrate with whatever they have on their end anyway right?
Relatively simple for someone like me who has some very basic 'money in' and 'money out' boxes.
 
I know it may not be ideal/possible for everyone but for a few hundred quid, getting an accountant to do this for you is such a massive relief.
I could not consider doing this myself at all. For me, it is worth every penny.
 
I know it may not be ideal/possible for everyone but for a few hundred quid, getting an accountant to do this for you is such a massive relief.
I could not consider doing this myself at all. For me, it is worth every penny.
Maybe, but it's an extra ball ache for me at the moment.
You may be able to deduct the tax, but that doesn't make it free.
Also, from how I understand it I would pretty much have to give an accountant exactly the same details and receipts etc that I have to do for HMRC anyway.
 
I know it may not be ideal/possible for everyone but for a few hundred quid, getting an accountant to do this for you is such a massive relief.
I could not consider doing this myself at all. For me, it is worth every penny.
I agree 100 %
 
I don't know if I am worrying too preemptively, but this looks like an absolute clusterfuck waiting to happen.
What is not 'digital' about the current version.

Or

Are they simply saying that tax forms etc submitted by post will not longer be available, and making it sound more complicated by mentioning all the third party software?

Or

Are they doing away with the digital version that looks like the sheet they send out?
That always seemed a bit out of date anyway. . . but it works doesn't it? Why not keep the HMRC version? The third party software will have to integrate with whatever they have on their end anyway right?
Relatively simple for someone like me who has some very basic 'money in' and 'money out' boxes.
The government/Treasury/HMRC think that most tax payers are incapable of typing or using a calculator accurately and, as a result, make mistakes in reporting their income and expenses. Therefore they devised Making Tax Digital (in all its forms) to try to minimise these perceived risks. The idea is that taxpayers should use software which captures the source information digitally to avoid the possibility of re-keying errors. So, in its simplest form, the software should import transactions directly from the taxpayer's bank account(s) and then the taxpayer should analyse these. Any other digital sources of data should also be linked to the software too. So, for instance, if you run a shop and record your sales on an electronic till, the reports from the till should be imported electronically to the software.

In my opinion, most of the taxpayers I deal with have generally recorded the transactional values of the the data I've mentioned accurately regardless of the method they've used. The problem often arises with the analysis of this information. Making Tax Digital (MTD) doesn't address this problem.

HMRC want the self-employed and landlords whose combined income is above £10,000 pa to use the new MTD for Self Assessment and therefore use MTD software. Other taxpayers, in self assessment, such as high earners and those with significant investment income will continue to submit annual Tax Returns in the same way.

For those caught by the MTD for Self Assessment rules they'll need to submit summary information every three months from the MTD software and then a final Return to 'tidy up' the Accounts and include other sources of income etc which would have appeared on their traditional Tax Return.

So, instead of submitting one Tax Return per year, you'll have to submit five!
Maybe, but it's an extra ball ache for me at the moment.
You may be able to deduct the tax, but that doesn't make it free.
Also, from how I understand it I would pretty much have to give an accountant exactly the same details and receipts etc that I have to do for HMRC anyway.
The decision to use an Accountant or not has always been down to the taxpayer. MTD won't change that. Some taxpayers really don't want to spend any time keeping their books. They are what are known as Carrier Bag or Shoebox jobs to Accountants. The client puts every bit of financial paperwork in a bag or box and hands it over to the Accountant once a year. The Accountant creates the records from the papers and prepares the Accounts and Tax Return. Some taxpayers use spreadsheets or software to collate all the financial information and file all the paperwork neatly and pass this over to the Accountant. Most taxpayers fall somewhere between those two extremes. Obviously, the amount of work done by the Accountant (and therefore the size of the bill) will vary depending on the level of work done by the client and the complexity but the Accountant will always ensure that the information submitted to HMRC will be accurate, compliant with the tax legislation and that all possible claims have been made. Even if some taxpayers are good at keeping their financial records they often want the re-assurance that they've been compliant and paying the correct amount of tax and that's why they use an Accountant.
 
The decision to use an Accountant or not has always been down to the taxpayer. MTD won't change that. Some taxpayers really don't want to spend any time keeping their books. They are what are known as Carrier Bag or Shoebox jobs to Accountants. The client puts every bit of financial paperwork in a bag or box and hands it over to the Accountant once a year. The Accountant creates the records from the papers and prepares the Accounts and Tax Return. Some taxpayers use spreadsheets or software to collate all the financial information and file all the paperwork neatly and pass this over to the Accountant. Most taxpayers fall somewhere between those two extremes. Obviously, the amount of work done by the Accountant (and therefore the size of the bill) will vary depending on the level of work done by the client and the complexity but the Accountant will always ensure that the information submitted to HMRC will be accurate, compliant with the tax legislation and that all possible claims have been made. Even if some taxpayers are good at keeping their financial records they often want the re-assurance that they've been compliant and paying the correct amount of tax and that's why they use an Accountant.
Yes but in my case with the current system is . . . Add up all my invoices for work (which I already have on file because I had to send them off to get paid). Then add up all my expenses (almost none, but anything I bought for work that year). I scan my receipts but also keep the real ones in a filed envelope). . . this comes to a very small amount.
I type the 'in' amount into the HMRC website and the 'out' amount in and that is almost all I have to do once a year apart from the usual form filling (which is mostly ticking 'no' for everything).

Am I wrong to say that If I just hand my invoices and receipts over to an accountant the only thing that will change is that they input the data (in-out) rather than me? Seems a bit expensive.


But yeah, I am not looking forward to filling in five returns a year. Arrrrhhh. Tories.
 
Yes but in my case with the current system is . . . Add up all my invoices for work (which I already have on file because I had to send them off to get paid). Then add up all my expenses (almost none, but anything I bought for work that year). I scan my receipts but also keep the real ones in a filed envelope). . . this comes to a very small amount.
I type the 'in' amount into the HMRC website and the 'out' amount in and that is almost all I have to do once a year apart from the usual form filling (which is mostly ticking 'no' for everything).

Am I wrong to say that If I just hand my invoices and receipts over to an accountant the only thing that will change is that they input the data (in-out) rather than me? Seems a bit expensive.

Exactly. I don't see how adding up a bunch of invoices, deducting costs and ticking a few declaration boxes on a website warrants the skills of an accountant. Unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious?
 
Am I wrong to say that If I just hand my invoices and receipts over to an accountant the only thing that will change is that they input the data (in-out) rather than me? Seems a bit expensive.
Your tax affairs may be that simple but it's very rare.

An Accountant won't just take the two figures you've calculated and put them in the Tax Return. They will critically assess what you've given them to ensure they are accurate and complete.

Off the top of my head they may consider the following (the list is not exhaustive):

Is the cash basis or accruals basis best for you?
Are all the expense claims valid or are there other things you could be claiming?
Does the Higher Income Child Benefit Charge apply to you?
Are there any other sources of income which need to be included in the Return - bank interest received or dividend income?
Are you getting the full tax relief on any pension contributions?
Are there any implications for other taxes from the information provided, either for this year or future years?
 
Your tax affairs may be that simple but it's very rare.

An Accountant won't just take the two figures you've calculated and put them in the Tax Return. They will critically assess what you've given them to ensure they are accurate and complete.

Off the top of my head they may consider the following (the list is not exhaustive):

Is the cash basis or accruals basis best for you?
Are all the expense claims valid or are there other things you could be claiming?
Does the Higher Income Child Benefit Charge apply to you?
Are there any other sources of income which need to be included in the Return - bank interest received or dividend income?
Are you getting the full tax relief on any pension contributions?
Are there any implications for other taxes from the information provided, either for this year or future years?

Yeah, but in my case (and I can't be the only one) this is all simple(ish) stuff. I think even the Child benefit one gets worked out automatically. Obviously as you say, there is more, but this is all on the HMRC form that I fill in every year.

I have talked to accountants and other people in my situation who use accountants, and so far have never been able to see the point.
 
I did my wife's in about 45 minutes using the HMRC form. Cash in, less expenses. Click the declaration boxes (which IIRC were pretty much NO to every question because: no kids, no property ownership, no capital gains, no benefits etc). Pay the bill. Done.
 
Gotta use an accountant if you want a mortgage. Does feel like an increasingly large amount of the industry is bullshit work that's been regulated into existence
 
If it makes anyone feel any better I got an accountants bill for 1600+600 quid this year

I’ve not managed to pay the fuckers the full wack and they are around wanting the next one
 
Gotta use an accountant if you want a mortgage. Does feel like an increasingly large amount of the industry is bullshit work that's been regulated into existence
Do you? I thought you could just show four years of freelance records and bank details. At least that is how it was just before I went freelance. I couldn't wait to be employed for years before getting my mortgage sorted so I had to rush to buy my house before I was made redundant. I made it with only about a month to spare.
Couldn't easily switch mortgages, (as I would have to submit new records) but luckily it was never really in my interests to.
 
I've always done my tax myself. Similar to above I've never found it difficult. Total all invoices in the tax period minus deductions and pay the bill. I think most people realise they are out of their depth especially with deductions and just opt for an accountant for peace of mind which is fair enough.

The only minor problems I've had is when I've checked something I shouldn't have whilst submitting the return and it's taken me off down a rabbit hole, easily rectifiable with a quick call to HMRC though..

I probably might be able to get a bit more deductions using an accountant but it's likely offset by the fee.

I decided to go digital at the start of this tax year and I've got to say I'm loving it so far. Especially the ability to record very accurate mileage and expenses. It feels like it's going to be the most deductions I've ever made. It's so simple to keep track of what invoices are outstanding and to create them. Yet to see what it's like come tax return time but if the reporting is anywhere near my previous setup on excel then I'm sold.

Don't really like the subscription model especially if that keeps creeping up but so far so good....
 
Hopefully some solid free (on-line?) software will be pointed towards/integrated with the HMRC before I get stuck in.
 
I flew home from holiday yesterday so have decided that today is not the day.
Maybe tomorrow.

Dreading it slightly this year as one employer I had (channel 5) caused some tax code nonsense that they won't fix. I have to add notes to my return.
It was all a big pain in the arse at the time so I am hoping I have written and left myself extensive notes on how to deal with it in my return. . . or I will have to revisit the whole thing from scratch.
I will be well pissed off with past me if I didn't do it.
 
We used to get farmed out to SA in January to assist with SA peak.

Never heard so many grown men crying. I used to be able to do a full return in 40 minutes. The job was of course not made any easier when the on screen boxes are numbered differently to the paper form.

I also had the ability to write off penalties. Very simple process on this. If they came 'Look, yes it was late and I'm sorry, dog died etc' penalty written off. If they came on 'WTF are you sending me for? I'm not fucking paying' penalty not written off.
 
Finished mine yesterday :thumbs:

So what's happening next year? We have to switch to a digital system?

'The digital tax system has been delayed for the self-employed and landlords for a further two years, according to a government announcement on 19 December 2022. Self Assessment tax payers were due to use Making Tax Digital from April 2024. The phased approach is now coming in from April 2026.'

This was meant to be the last paper one for me, I switched to a digital system already so it's too late for me to delay, I'm going to have to do it.

Not quite sure what their reasonings are for the delay to a 'phased approach' .....probably something to do with an impending clusterfuck. 😆
 
'The digital tax system has been delayed for the self-employed and landlords for a further two years, according to a government announcement on 19 December 2022. Self Assessment tax payers were due to use Making Tax Digital from April 2024. The phased approach is now coming in from April 2026.'

This was meant to be the last paper one for me, I switched to a digital system already so it's too late for me to delay, I'm going to have to do it.

Not quite sure what their reasonings are for the delay to a 'phased approach' is.....probably something to do with an impending clusterfuck. 😆
I beleive some accountants have been testing the "Making Tax Digital" system, and yes, it's a clusterfuck. The goverment has probably realised this, and decided they don't need to preside over another disaster.

Making Tax Digital is different from doing your tax return online though. Most people have been doing that for years.
 
Making Tax Digital is different from doing your tax return online though. Most people have been doing that for years.

What will it mean for people like me then? Will I have to buy my own software or get an accountant?
I have had no information about it other than what I have seen on this thread, so I can imagine it would have been a bit of a surprise (and therefore the aforementioned clusterfuck) to quite a lot of self employed people.

The only benefits anything could bring to me would be to simplify the current form, make more of it automatic, easier to understand and integrate the payment element better.
 
What will it mean for people like me then? Will I have to buy my own software or get an accountant?
I have had no information about it other than what I have seen on this thread, so I can imagine it would have been a bit of a surprise (and therefore the aforementioned clusterfuck) to quite a lot of self employed people.

The only benefits anything could bring to me would be to simplify the current form, make more of it automatic, easier to understand and integrate the payment element better.
I honestly don’t know. The way it’s going you won’t have to worry about it for a while.
 
IME when the govt says it's delayed the implementation of something like this, it's very rare it doesn't mean the change turned out to be utterly unworkable. I'll be surprised if this isn't the equivalent of sweeping it under the sofa and walking away whistling. If it does come back, I bet it looks completely different.
 
I sent my stuff off to accountants mid November I’ve heard fuck all back yet, slightly worried as the accountant who has done my books for 18 years retired and I don’t think she has handed over
1. How shit I am at tax returns
2. How complicated my tax is (apparently)
3. The fact I still owe them a big bill from last year

I’m teetering on the edge of liquidity as it is a big tax bill on top of everything else will sink me:facepalm:
 
What will it mean for people like me then? Will I have to buy my own software or get an accountant?
I have had no information about it other than what I have seen on this thread, so I can imagine it would have been a bit of a surprise (and therefore the aforementioned clusterfuck) to quite a lot of self employed people.

The only benefits anything could bring to me would be to simplify the current form, make more of it automatic, easier to understand and integrate the payment element better.
You will need MTD compliant software of some kind. There are numerous packages out there from bridging software (which takes your data from a spreadsheet) through to fully functional bookkeeping and accounts software. You won't necessarily need an accountant.

There have been advertising campaigns across all media from both HMRC and software providers for several years. I first mentioned it on this thread back in February 2018. Admittedly the software providers have been most active as they see a massive opportunity to make money from it.

In simple terms, you will need to record your bookkeeping in electronic form from the source documentation. You will need to submit quarterly Returns to HMRC directly from within the software and then submit a final (fifth Return) to add in any year end adjustments for your accounts. The fifth Return will also include other tax related information which isn't part of your self-employment/rental income such as bank interest, dividends etc.
 
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IME when the govt says it's delayed the implementation of something like this, it's very rare it doesn't mean the change turned out to be utterly unworkable. I'll be surprised if this isn't the equivalent of sweeping it under the sofa and walking away whistling. If it does come back, I bet it looks completely different.
There were problems when they introduced MTD for VAT. So many, they had to delay mandatory introduction of it. Although VAT itself can be a very complicated tax, the information submitted via the VAT Returns is very basic so creating a new system to capture the Return information shouldn't have been too complex. However, with Income Tax there are far more variables to consider.

I think it will get introduced but it's interesting that they've delayed the introduction until after the next election.
 
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