SWP supports blair's religious hatred laws...

[hibee]

Rather than just deflect the criticism onto another sect, Udo, what are your view on the laws under discussion?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

 

[Pickman's model]

Firstly, this thread makes allegations against the SWP on the basis of hearsay - that deserves a response

so where is it? eh?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

so where is it? eh?

See above in my questioning of a "report" of a meeting which the CPGB member was not present at and the attributing of views to the SWP without any actual concrete quotes from those present but instead various speculation, innuendo and distortion dressed up as fact.

 

[Pickman's model]

See above in my questioning of a "report" of a meeting which the CPGB member was not present at and the attributing of views to the SWP without any actual concrete quotes from those present but instead various speculation, innuendo and distortion dressed up as fact.

so that is an official swp response?

fucking pisspoor!

 

[hibee]

See above in my questioning of a "report" of a meeting which the CPGB member was not present at and the attributing of views to the SWP without any actual concrete quotes from those present but instead various speculation, innuendo and distortion dressed up as fact.

But what do you think of these laws, Udo?

 

[Pickman's model]

But what do you think of these laws, Udo?

he's waiting for the swappie rapid rebuttal unit - you may have to wait some time.

 

[oisleep]

But what do you think of these laws, Udo?

careful now, this is new territory

 

[Pickman's model]

careful now, this is new territory

to boldly go where no trot has gone before!

 

[hibee]

careful now, this is new territory

aye well I have this misplaced faith udo will turn out to be a pioneer among trotbots

 

[bolshiebhoy]

If you'd grown up in the segreagated west of scotland, as I did, you'd realise you're talking total bollocks.

The problem being of course - and the reason the SSP supports the contined existance of religious schools in Scotland while aiming for a secular future - that in practice non-religious schools in Scotland are Protestant dominated which is why whatever socialists feel about the benefits of a Catholic education (I had one and wouldn't wish it on anyone) we have to defend people's right to go it alone. The people you hear most often blaming sectarianism in Scotland on religous schools (i.e. Catholic schools) are the Orange bigots who helped build sectarianism into every aspect of life in the first place.

And the same argument goes for muslims who feel alienated from 'non-religious' schools in England or Wales.

 

[rednblack]

See above in my questioning of a "report" of a meeting which the CPGB member was not present at and the attributing of views to the SWP without any actual concrete quotes from those present but instead various speculation, innuendo and distortion dressed up as fact.

can you catagorically deny that john rees said what he's accused of saying?

what is your opinion of these laws?

what do you think to a leading member of MAB and respect saying that he thinks respect should have a position, and he doesnt mind if they adopt a position contrary to MAB's?

 

[Paul Marsh]

What will this new law achieve? Dr Siddiqui, of the Muslim Parliament, argues that these laws won't protect muslims, and could become a "dangerous double-edged sword."

Which roughly translates as: "This is could be a really bad thing, as lots of us will get done as well as lots of them"

 

[butchersapron]

I think you've inadvertently opened the door to what the real line will be there hibee. Regardless of whether the situations are analogous (they aren't).

 

[hibee]

The problem being of course - and the reason the SSP supports the contined existance of religious schools in Scotland while aiming for a secular future - that in practice non-religious schools in Scotland are Protestant dominated which is why whatever socialists feel about the benefits of a Catholic education (I had one and wouldn't wish it on anyone) we have to defend people's right to go it alone. The people you hear most often blaming sectarianism in Scotland on religous schools (i.e. Catholic schools) are the Orange bigots who helped build sectarianism into every aspect of life in the first place.

And the same argument goes for muslims who feel alienated from 'non-religious' schools in England or Wales.

Why do we have to "defend people's right to go it alone"? I'm well aware that "non denominational" schools in west central scotland are de facto protestant schools, but shouldn't socialists take every opportunity to pull down barriers within the working class, starting from scratch if need be?

I thought you people were supposed to be revolutionaries, not reformists.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

As an example of typical CPGB "journalism", the article describes Alan Thornett of the ISG's reluctance to enter in to debate with the CPGB.

This the Weekly Wrecker argues is because he is secretive and doesn't want Respect opened up to democratic scrutiny.

A more plausible reason for Alan Thornett's "evasiveness" when speaking to a member of the CPGB could be just that he has better things to do than waste precious time talking to an irrelevant sect

Including writing reports on websites that put his side of the debates in Respect ... contrary to claims that he supports everything the SWP does in Respect.

http://www.socialistresistance.net/Respect newspaper.htm

 

[rednblack]

I think you've inadvertently opened the door to what the real line will be there hibee. Regardless of whether the situations are analogous (they aren't).

i agree on both counts, it's pretty much what they're already saying anyway...

 

[Udo Erasmus]

As it happens I oppose the new laws, though I don't regard anybody who supports them for progressive reasons as being an ultra-reactionary who I won't work with - some people might support them in good faith seeing them as defending Muslims from racist persecution.

This is a sideshow

Allegations against the SWP have been made based on a "report" of a meeting.

Investigation shows that the guy writing the article wasn't actually even present at the meeting, doesn't substantiate his report with any evidence for his claims

 

[Pickman's model]

Investigation shows that the guy writing the article wasn't actually even present at the meeting, doesn't substantiate his report with any evidence for his claims

what deep and meaningful investigation's that then, sherlock?

 

[rednblack]

Investigation shows that the guy writing the article wasn't actually even present at the meeting, doesn't substantiate his report with any evidence for his claims

so, as an swp member you can safely say that john rees (leading cc member) didnt say what the ww accused him of saying?

 

[hibee]

I think you've inadvertently opened the door to what the real line will be there hibee. Regardless of whether the situations are analogous (they aren't).

I'm not sure butchers, I see the sectarianism I grew up among as something both liberals and trots are pandering to.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not sure butchers, I see the sectarianism I grew up among as something both liberals and trots are pandering to.

Badly worded on my part there mate - i fully agree with you, but think they'll use the situtation you describe to support their decison to back this - they'll try to pretend that the problems extends nationally and that muslim groups are now in the postion of catholics and so need support for to do their own thing. At least, that's the path bb has half beaten out for the lesser ones to run down...

 

[hibee]

Badly worded on my part there mate - i fully agree with you, but think they'll use the situtation you describe to support their decison to back this - they'll try to pretend that the problems extends nationally and that muslim groups are now in the postion of catholics and so need support for to do their own thing. At least, that's the path bb has half beaten out for the lesser ones to run down...

Aye, fair do's. My own position on this is that, yes, anti irish racism in Scotland is not the fault of catholic schools, and I don't blame persecuted groups for looking for safety, but in the long run driving a wedge between communites benefits everyone except the working class. It never fails to astonish me how "revolutionaries" refuse to countenance starting the system from scratch and fall back on "well themmuns have got it, why shouldn't they?"

 

[Random]

It never fails to astonish me how "revolutionaries" refuse to countenance starting the system from scratch and fall back on "well themmuns have got it, why shouldn't they?"

The SWp haven't been revolutionary for some time, now. They're a party focused on elections, and as such like talking about new laws, etc.

 

[mk12]

So talking about new laws means you are not a revolutionary?

 

[butchersapron]

So talking about new laws means you are not a revolutionary?

It depends what position you take towards the new laws surely?

 

[Pickman's model]

So talking about new laws means you are not a revolutionary?

are you going to obey this new fucked up law?

 

[mk12]

It depends what position you take towards the new laws surely?

Yeah, of course. But having a discussion about it doesn't make you a non-revolutionary.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, of course. But having a discussion about it doesn't make you a non-revolutionary.

but it's the top of a very slippery slope...

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, of course. But having a discussion about it doesn't make you a non-revolutionary.

Who on earth would claim that it does? Don't we oppose a whole raft of laws brought in on the back of the war on terror? We've discussed them. I think you'll find Random posted a few other reasons as well though, and was talking about law in diff (electoral/coalition building to the right) context.