SWP supports blair's religious hatred laws...

[poster342002]

Why not just fight the racism itself, instead of supporting segregation?

Silly you! Don't you realise? Opposing segregation is racist!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Is it that difficult to see that there is a difference between defending the right to secede and advocating that people actually do secede? Socialists defend a woman's right to choose but don't argue for an end to childbirth!

 

[cockneyrebel]

So BB do you support the right to set up racially segreggated schools, as is being currently being advocated by some corners (Lee Jasper I think).

 

[butchersapron]

I almost said yesterday it would end up with the classic Lenin on nations psoiton but didn't want to help you lot. In lin with that you'll them be arguing within RESPECT against the motion you earlier supported then?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

So BB do you support the right to set up racially segreggated schools, as is being currently being advocated by some corners (Lee Jasper I think).

I wouldn't advocate it and it would be a huge step backwards but if a groundswell of black opinion was to grow demanding it I don't think we could oppose their right to do it. I'd still be arguing that people shouldn't do it. Isn't this stuff basic to you lot cockers, taking into account ba's mention of lenin's position (well I did refer to his method yesterday but you do know our arguments better than we do butchers![edited to say I meant that, wasn't meant snidely ]). In fact cockney your blessed transitional prog goes further and in the case of the US argues for the right of blacks to secede from the nation itself.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I wouldn't advocate it and it would be a huge step backwards but if a groundswell of black opinion was to grow demanding it I don't think we could oppose their right to do it. I'd still be arguing that people shouldn't do it. Isn't this stuff basic to you lot cockers, taking into account ba's mention of lenin's position (well I did refer to his method yesterday but you do know our arguments better than we do butchers![edited to say I meant that, wasn't meant snidely ]). In fact cockney your blessed transitional prog goes further and in the case of the US argues for the right of blacks to secede from the nation itself.[/QUOTE]

Is this true? Would it apply to Britain as well?

 

[butchersapron]

Funnily enough, 20 boneheads pictured in this months Searchlight who dream a lot about doing just that.

I've now seen the picture - fuck me, what a shower! John Wood looking particularly scary.

 

[Ryazan]

yeah i'm looking forward to another rebel warrior "moment"

we could actually just write it for him now and save her the bother

I didn't know RW was a she. Is she fit?

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't know RW was a she. Is she fit?

opinion varies, depending who you ask.

 

[Ryazan]

Does she like Noble Savages?

 

[Pickman's model]

Does she like Noble Savages?

i dunno, what tar are they?

 

[Ryazan]

I am one.

 

[audiotech]

I've now seen the picture - fuck me, what a shower! John Wood looking particularly scary.

I wonder what that strange old woman in the front, with what looks like a disability, says to her grandchildren? I also wonder if the person who took the photo has gone into hiding.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

A belated reply: this is just factually incorrect. Faith Schools - esp. C of E - are not predominantly working class. Quite the opposite - with the relatively low number of remaining grammar schools they are actually the main vehicle for selection in Britain. They operate this both formally and informally - requiring attendance or a family history in the particular church (at least when oversubscribed) - and also tend to have an effect on house prices in thier area (with middle class and 'aspirational' parents seeking the prized postcodes). They also tend to get better results - reinforcing further their pull factor on local parents.
...

I think you are confusing primary and secondary schools. The largest number of church schools are primary - in Lancashire for example the majority of all primaries are church schools and certainly not just in middle class areas. The majority of the population are working class so it follows their schools are too. You may have a point on Secondary, but they are very much the minority of church schools. I'll look up some detailed data when I get a minute.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I think you are confusing primary and secondary schools. The largest number of church schools are primary - in Lancashire for example the majority of all primaries are church schools and certainly not just in middle class areas. The majority of the population are working class so it follows their schools are too. You may have a point on Secondary, but they are very much the minority of church schools. I'll look up some detailed data when I get a minute.

Okay according to the evidence I have unearthed, I may have overstated the situation but the basic premise is still sound I think.

According to research carried out in 1995, 34.4% of all primary schools in England were church schools; representing about 30% of all pupils. These are Geographically concentrated in certain areas. In the North, where I live, places like Lancashire, Wigan and Merseyside tended to have the highest proportion (60% in Wigan, 54% in Lancashire). In part this is because of the concentration of RC schools (as distinct from CoE). These places are overwhelmingly urban, densely populated, working class, Labour voting areas. It is a reasonable statement to say that in these areas 'Church Schools are likely to be full of working class kids'. This is also my personal experience of living here for 15 years.

There are other areas of the country where the concentration is also high, but the population is less working class, mainly more rural areas - eg Oxfordshire 58%, Somerset 54%. Here Church Schools are likely to be more middle class, nevertheless there will still be a large number (in absolute terms) of working class kids in these schools.

I'm looking for more up-to-date data.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Does she like Noble Savages?

Swarthy Thugs?

 

[rebel warrior]

In fact cockney your blessed transitional prog goes further and in the case of the US argues for the right of blacks to secede from the nation itself.

That is not actually quite true, BB. Stalinists in the US (ie the CP) were arguing for such a position at the time, calling for a 'Black Belt' of independent Southern states ( trying to base themselves on Lenin's writings on the 'national question').

Trotsky to be honest did not really have a clue what to think about this question in 1938 - he was in Mexico at the time and the American SWP did not really have much of a base among black workers.

However, after discussions with CLR James in 1939, Trotsky decided that they would not raise it themselves as a slogan - but they had a duty to support black people in the US if they themselves (and not just Communists) wanted to fight for it. As it happened, black people didn't, so the issue never arose.
http://www.marxists.org.uk/archive/trotsky/works/1940/negro1.htm

Actually, and this can be seen from reading the full writings of Trotsky on black nationalism (which are sadly not online), Trotsky was far more flexible on this question than orthodox Trotskyists acknowledge. Indeed, in 1939 he even considered that Trotskyists (black and white) might help to launch an independent black political organisation that might stand in elections in its own right and that would not be overtly socialist. This organisation was never launched for several reasons - one of them being that the Trotskyist movement in the US was too weak, especially after Trotsky was killed.

I think it would be a little bit outplaced to draw comparisons with Respect here - there were 14 million black people in the US at that time that did not have political representation (and this organisation was really to be focussed on representing them alone) but I think it does prove that Trotsky (even after the launch of the Transitional Programme) was a more creative revolutionary thinker than his orthodox followers give him credit as being.

 

[Ryazan]

Swarthy Thugs?

Aye.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am one.

i'd agree with the savage bit, but noble? yr having a laugh!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

That is not actually quite true, BB...they had a duty to support black people in the US if they themselves (and not just Communists) wanted to fight for it.

That's what I said innit? A right vs advocacy.

 

[rebel warrior]

That's what I said innit? A right vs advocacy.

Apologies, comrade.

 

[Ryazan]

i'd agree with the savage bit, but noble? yr having a laugh!

How dare you.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

However, after discussions with CLR James in 1939, Trotsky decided that they would not raise it themselves as a slogan - but they had a duty to support black people in the US if they themselves (and not just Communists) wanted to fight for it. As it happened, black people didn't, so the issue never arose.

So would modern day Lev Bronsteins support a call for an Islamascist state in Britain if they thought there was a reasonance for this amongst Muslims or purely defend their right to call for it?

 

[butchersapron]

And yes, the issue did arise actually RW - plenty of black seperartists/independent staters around at that time - and today as well. And to extend the logic of yuor point and the above question - what abour poor white sharecroppers/landlless labourers/ tenant farmers in the US south, if they demanded their own state would you support their right to make that demand?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

what abour poor white sharecroppers/landlless labourers/ tenant farmers in the US south, if they demanded their own state would you support their right to make that demand?

You know the answer to that one butchers. No. Any more than we'd support udi in the six counties or white secession in South Africa.

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, but a poor group of oppressed, not oppresors? It's not the same thing when you're the beneficiary of state power and the like - that's why i picked the specific examples i did - of groups whose historical experience is pretty similiar to that of much of the black population of the US.

edit: anyway, stop ruining my fun - i'd love to see what RW could come up with!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Interesting contribution on the Faith Schools debate on the Socialist Resistance web site - from educationalist Richard Hatcher (of the University of Central England, Birmingham and a former leader of the Socialist Teachers Alliance).

http://www.socialistresistance.net/Faith Schools.htm