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SWP split?

Nigel Irritable said:
Maybe the Black Hand will show up to offer his (non-voting) support however.
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Well it is worth the same as the (non voting) opposition.

By the way I don't give a fuck about the secretary, I don't know him - but I do think if an organisation is going to be democratic it needs to be consistent.
 
Rod Sleeves said:
So you support the sort of woolly minded sub-anarchoid nonsense that allows any random group of people to turn up at an organisations meeting and vote in a new set of officers?
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All of the people present were members of the NESSN, although as I understand it a few were "non-voting members". The meeting was, again as I understand it, the largest meeting, other than public meetings, held by the NESSN so it was hardly unrepresentative.

I fully support the right of the members of an organisation to get rid of a bureaucrat who was abusing his office in an entirely arbitrary way. The fact that he could only get 5 other people to support him is telling. As, in its own way, is the fact that TBH is a big fan.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
I fully support the right of the members of an organisation to get rid of a bureaucrat who was abusing his office in an entirely arbitrary way.
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You support a small group of members of an organisation ignoring constitutional and democratic structures to impose their will?

What makes your side better than his?:confused:
 
Rod Sleeves said:
So you support the sort of woolly minded sub-anarchoid nonsense that allows any random group of people to turn up at an organisations meeting and vote in a new set of officers?

You may well be right that the other voting members (which is more than 76 as not all members present were voting members) will not turn up not that they need to (as he is still secretary) to reinstate him, but that does not make this sort of alienating political manipulation and total ignoring of democracy correct.

Will we now see the NESSN be dragged into the same level of irrelevance and sterility as the network is nationally?

Would the SP not have criticised the undemocratic nature of this action if it had been CPBer and SWPers ganging up on a secretary of their choice?
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GO Rod:D

The bit in bold above is a particularly correct observation.:cool::cool:
 
Nigel Irritable said:
All of the people present were members of the NESSN, although as I understand it a few were "non-voting members". The meeting was, again as I understand it, the largest meeting, other than public meetings, held by the NESSN so it was hardly unrepresentative.

I fully support the right of the members of an organisation to get rid of a bureaucrat who was abusing his office in an entirely arbitrary way. The fact that he could only get 5 other people to support him is telling. As, in its own way, is the fact that TBH is a big fan.
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A) Given that virtually the entire membership of the North East SP and SWP turned up it is no surprise. As a Marxist you should know that quantity is no judge of quality.

B) Liar, its fully opportunistic on behalf of the SP and SWP (again). They voted FOR the motion that attacks the IWW, NOW they swap and oppose it in order to OUST a bureaucrat they do not control. IT's rubbish as ROd has indicated, and any authentically independent can see that.

THE biggest laugh is that you think I think Dave Harker is GREAT. Publically and in the NESSN I have had oppositional exchanges with Harker, also internally in the IWW I have made it clear that I am not a Harker supporter. That is not to say I think he is worse than the SP/SWP, infact, I definately support him over such brazen political manouvering (but support only as a by product of the need to maintain political independence from the SP/SWP).
 
You haven't even got a job, never mind being a steward - so what a shop stewards network has to do with you i don't know. Never mind trying to set what network there is against the IWW. Grow up, or you'll be out on your ear once more.
 
butchersapron said:
You haven't even got a job, never mind being a steward - so what a shop stewards network has to do with you i don't know. Never mind trying to set what network there is against the IWW. Grow up, or you'll be out on your ear once more.
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'You don't know what you are on about'! But thats never stopped you before Butch.
 
The Black Hand said:
A) Given that virtually the entire sad membership of the North East SP and SWP turned up it is no surprise. As a Marxist you should know that quantity is judge of quality.

B) Liar, its fully opportunistic on behalf of the SP and SWP (again). They voted FOR the motion that attacks the IWW, NOW they swap and oppose it in order to OUST a bureaucrat they do not control. IT's rubbish as ROd has indicated, and any authentically independent can see that.

THE biggest laugh is that you think I think Dave Harker is GREAT. Publically and in the NESSN I have had oppositional exchanges with Harker, also internally in the IWW I have made it clear that I am not a Harker supporter. That is not to say I think he is worse than the SP/SWP, infact, I definately support him over such brazen political manouvering (but support only as a by product of the need to maintain political independence from the SP/SWP).
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ever_decreasing_circles.jpg
 
Rod Sleeves said:
You support a small group of members of an organisation ignoring constitutional and democratic structures to impose their will?

Joint reply to the report by Dave Harker, ex-Regional Secretary of the North East Shop Stewards' Network, by: Fran Heathcote, PCS DWP Group Organiser, NE DWP Regional Chair, Northern Region Vice Chair (all personal capacity) and Socialist Party member; and Elaine Brunskill, Socialist Party Northern Regional Secretary.

Over a period of time a growing number of those involved in the NESSN were becoming increasingly concerned about the bureaucratic, top-down style that was being adopted by Dave Harker, Regional Secretary of the NESSN.

A well publicized meeting 'Whither NESSN' was convened for the 19th November by the steering committee to deal with the differences that were clearly developing on how to take the NESSN forward. The majority of the meeting (16-6) voted against Dave Harker, seeing him as an obstacle to the future growth of the NESSN.

In Dave Harker's report he lists those with/without the right to vote. However, at the meeting the chair, Alan Docherty, made it clear he was allowing everyone there the right to vote. Nobody challenged this decision.

When a motion of 'no confidence in Dave Harker as regional secretary' was put forward by Elaine Brunskill, then seconded by Yunus Bakhsh, nobody challenged the right of these comrades to do so. If they had have been challenged for putting forward an 'illegal no confidence motion', there were plenty of others who had previously been abused by Dave Harker's dictatorial attitude present who were prepared to take up the challenge to Dave Harker.

Dave Harker has argued that the vote to remove him should have been deferred to the AGM in the spring of 2010, in order that the '111 with full (voting) rights' could be present. However, the majority of activists within the NESSN were fearful that the bureaucratic approach being adopted by Dave Harker would mean the NESSN would be wrecked by then.

Also, by mentioning the '111 with full rights', Dave Harker is suggesting that this number was likely to turn up. However, according to a report by Dave Harker emailed out on the 29th May 2008 the, 'NESSN’s first conference took place in Newcastle on 29 March 2008. It was attended by 24 people'. The report goes on to say another meeting on the 8th May 2008 was attended by 22 Networkers. Since those meetings numbers have dwindled. Only 19 at the last workshop, The AGM report for March 2009 shows only 18 present. The 'Wither NESSN' meeting held on November 19th had 23 present.

Dave Harker is critical of the National Shop Stewards Network being a voluntary body. The NSSN steering committee is a voluntary body. Dave Harker could have volunteered to go on, but chose not too. He could also have put forward a motion at the conference to have an elected steering committee, but did not do so.

Dave Harker then attacks the the National Shop Stewards Network as being dominated by one political group. In reality, the steering committee is elected yearly at well-attended conferences, all hold positions as reps in trade unions at various levels and in various
capacities. There is also a diverse range of political views

The assertion by Dave Harker that the NSSN is largely a paper organisation will no doubt anger many. The NSSN is a fledgling organisation, which will be tested in struggle. However, even at this early stage it is showing itself capable of assisting workers in their struggle against the bosses. In other areas SSN's were backing the occupations at Visteon, backing the Lindsey oil refinery construction workers, Postal strikers, etc.
Unfortunately, in the north-east the development of the NESSN was stunted due to the hierarchical methods adopted by Dave Harker. This top-down approach led to a sluggish response. For example, the NESSN did not organise any public meetings or support of postal workers in their recent strike action.

Dave Harker asserts that, 'The NE left as a whole has built nothing of any size that has lasted, for at least forty years.' As Dave Harker has not lived in the north-east for a number of years we feel it is disgraceful to make such a remark.

Many who have been involved on the left in the region will recall the tremendous support groups which sprung up to support the miners' during the mid-1980's. The anti-poll tax struggle attracted masses of workers and young people across the region. The support group for the sacked Magnet workers also played an important role. Across the region the anti-war movement attracted a new layer to class politics. More recently the Keep the Metro Public campaign has involved trade union members, community activists and socialists.

This remark also shows Dave Harker does not take cognisance of the political backdrop of the past twenty years. Internationally the collapse of Stalinism led to euphoria from the capitalist class who shouted from the roof top that their system was the only viable option. In Britain this lead to the transition of the Labour Party into New Labour – workers were left with no political representation. Right-wing trade union leaders argued that class struggle was outdated and the way forward for workers was to have partnerships with bosses. Against this onslaught the working class was pushed back and organisations representing the working class also suffered as a consequence. However, workers are now emerging from this period, and class-struggles again beginning to surface.

Dave Harker points out that comrades from two of the political groups present (SP and SWP) moved and seconded the vote of no confidence. Many activists at that meeting were astonished when, just before the vote took place, Dave Harker asserted that even if there was a vote of no confidence he would remain as the regional secretary – so much for the defender of democracy!.

This led to an amendment to the motion being put forward by Hannah Walter and seconded by Yunus Bakhsh that the existing elected members of the NESSN steering committee, bar Dave Harker, would meet in December to plan the AGM and organise the work of the NESSN. This amendment to the motion was passed 16-6. At this AGM the new Regional Secretary will be elected. This meeting will be advertised and give all members of the network a chance to vote for the secretary – all very democratic.

Dave Harker's report gives the impression that the meeting consisted of two left groups who lined up against a small number of individuals. In reality there were at least 3 political groups present: SP, SWP and Left Unity (which has nothing to do with Left Unity in PCS), Dave Harker is involved with this group, speaking at their public meeting. At the meeting Vicki Gilbert confirmed that Left Unity was an organised group with a steering committee. There were also some who were not part of any group – some voted for the amendment, some against.

Dave Harker alleges that attempts were made to bully him into supporting 'various front organisations'. The NESSN had made a decision not to publicize material from individual groups, the Socialist Party disagrees with this stance, have consistently argued against it, but have worked within the narrow parameters of the decision. However, under Dave Harker this policy was not applied evenly across the board.

The so called Left Unity group, which has no trade union backing has been given open access to the network. The CPB was allowed to advertise on the events list. Dave Harker argued it was the Morning Star's People's Press Printing Society pushing the meeting, not the CPB! We do not have a problem with these events being advertised, but cannot see why our events do not qualify.

In stark contrast Youth Fight For Jobs (YFFJ), which is supported by the RMT, PCS and CWU trade unions, was initially not allowed to advertise on the website – despite a statement from a regional RMT organiser confirming RMT backing. Our young comrade, who is doing a tremendous job building YFFJ, initially politely requested the inclusion of the event. When this was denied he was forced to circulate the whole network in order to push Dave Harker into advertising the event. He then received a typically high handed email response from Dave Harker, telling him to, 'dismount from your high horse until you have learned to ride it properly.' If the democratically adopted decision of the NESSN had have been properly applied, our young comrade would not have needed to circulate material.

This wasn't the first insulting email that Dave Harker had sent to this young comrade. Previously Dave Harker had criticised him for supposedly not understanding how to work in a United Front and patronisingly was told to in an email: 'Read some more! Maybe there should be, er, a united front meeting on this.'

In his report Dave Harker asserts that the discussion at the 'Wither NESSN' meeting was 'often incoherent'. We would argue that the discussion was extremely focused and coherent. The majority at the meeting wanted a change in direction from the overly bureaucratic approach of Dave Harker. We are now hopeful that the NESSN can now move forward and function as a combative organisation assisting workers in struggle.
Click to expand...
 
Macullam;10022692][QUOTE=Rod Sleeves said:
You support a small group of members of an organisation ignoring constitutional and democratic structures to impose their will?

Joint reply to the report by Dave Harker, ex-Regional Secretary of the North East Shop Stewards' Network, by: Fran Heathcote, PCS DWP Group Organiser, NE DWP Regional Chair, Northern Region Vice Chair (all personal capacity) and Socialist Party member; and Elaine Brunskill, Socialist Party Northern Regional Secretary.

Over a period of time a growing number of those involved in the NESSN were becoming increasingly concerned about the bureaucratic, top-down style that was being adopted by Dave Harker, Regional Secretary of the NESSN.

A) A well publicized meeting 'Whither NESSN' was convened for the 19th November by the steering committee to deal with the differences that were clearly developing on how to take the NESSN forward. The majority of the meeting (16-6) voted against Dave Harker, seeing him as an obstacle to the future growth of the NESSN.

B) In Dave Harker's report he lists those with/without the right to vote. However, at the meeting the chair, Alan Docherty, made it clear he was allowing everyone there the right to vote. Nobody challenged this decision.

When a motion of 'no confidence in Dave Harker as regional secretary' was put forward by Elaine Brunskill, then seconded by Yunus Bakhsh, nobody challenged the right of these comrades to do so. If they had have been challenged for putting forward an 'illegal no confidence motion', there were plenty of others who had previously been abused by Dave Harker's dictatorial attitude present who were prepared to take up the challenge to Dave Harker.

Dave Harker has argued that the vote to remove him should have been deferred to the AGM in the spring of 2010, in order that the '111 with full (voting) rights' could be present. However, the majority of activists within the NESSN were fearful that the bureaucratic approach being adopted by Dave Harker would mean the NESSN would be wrecked by then.

Also, by mentioning the '111 with full rights', Dave Harker is suggesting that this number was likely to turn up. However, according to a report by Dave Harker emailed out on the 29th May 2008 the, 'NESSN’s first conference took place in Newcastle on 29 March 2008. It was attended by 24 people'. The report goes on to say another meeting on the 8th May 2008 was attended by 22 Networkers. Since those meetings numbers have dwindled. Only 19 at the last workshop, The AGM report for March 2009 shows only 18 present. The 'Wither NESSN' meeting held on November 19th had 23 present.

Dave Harker is critical of the National Shop Stewards Network being a voluntary body. The NSSN steering committee is a voluntary body. Dave Harker could have volunteered to go on, but chose not too. He could also have put forward a motion at the conference to have an elected steering committee, but did not do so.

C) Dave Harker then attacks the the National Shop Stewards Network as being dominated by one political group. In reality, the steering committee is elected yearly at well-attended conferences, all hold positions as reps in trade unions at various levels and in various capacities. There is also a diverse range of political views

The assertion by Dave Harker that the NSSN is largely a paper organisation will no doubt anger many. The NSSN is a fledgling organisation, which will be tested in struggle. However, even at this early stage it is showing itself capable of assisting workers in their struggle against the bosses. In other areas SSN's were backing the occupations at Visteon, backing the Lindsey oil refinery construction workers, Postal strikers, etc.

D) Unfortunately, in the north-east the development of the NESSN was stunted due to the hierarchical methods adopted by Dave Harker. This top-down approach led to a sluggish response. For example, the NESSN did not organise any public meetings or support of postal workers in their recent strike action.

E) Dave Harker asserts that, 'The NE left as a whole has built nothing of any size that has lasted, for at least forty years.' As Dave Harker has not lived in the north-east for a number of years we feel it is disgraceful to make such a remark.

Many who have been involved on the left in the region will recall the tremendous support groups which sprung up to support the miners' during the mid-1980's. The anti-poll tax struggle attracted masses of workers and young people across the region. The support group for the sacked Magnet workers also played an important role. Across the region the anti-war movement attracted a new layer to class politics. More recently the Keep the Metro Public campaign has involved trade union members, community activists and socialists.

This remark also shows Dave Harker does not take cognisance of the political backdrop of the past twenty years. Internationally the collapse of Stalinism led to euphoria from the capitalist class who shouted from the roof top that their system was the only viable option. In Britain this lead to the transition of the Labour Party into New Labour – workers were left with no political representation. Right-wing trade union leaders argued that class struggle was outdated and the way forward for workers was to have partnerships with bosses. Against this onslaught the working class was pushed back and organisations representing the working class also suffered as a consequence.

F) However, workers are now emerging from this period, and class-struggles again beginning to surface.

Dave Harker points out that comrades from two of the political groups present (SP and SWP) moved and seconded the vote of no confidence. Many activists at that meeting were astonished when, just before the vote took place, Dave Harker asserted that even if there was a vote of no confidence he would remain as the regional secretary – so much for the defender of democracy!.

This led to an amendment to the motion being put forward by Hannah Walter and seconded by Yunus Bakhsh that the existing elected members of the NESSN steering committee, bar Dave Harker, would meet in December to plan the AGM and organise the work of the NESSN. This amendment to the motion was passed 16-6. At this AGM the new Regional Secretary will be elected. This meeting will be advertised and give all members of the network a chance to vote for the secretary – all very democratic.

G) Dave Harker's report gives the impression that the meeting consisted of two left groups who lined up against a small number of individuals. In reality there were at least 3 political groups present: SP, SWP and Left Unity (which has nothing to do with Left Unity in PCS), Dave Harker is involved with this group, speaking at their public meeting. At the meeting Vicki Gilbert confirmed that Left Unity was an organised group with a steering committee. There were also some who were not part of any group – some voted for the amendment, some against.

Dave Harker alleges that attempts were made to bully him into supporting 'various front organisations'. The NESSN had made a decision not to publicize material from individual groups, the Socialist Party disagrees with this stance, have consistently argued against it, but have worked within the narrow parameters of the decision. However, under Dave Harker this policy was not applied evenly across the board.
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A) Virtually if not totally all SP/SWP - it was a deliberately loaded meeting.
B) To vote in what, an extra/sub constitutional meeting?
C) I have heard info is being withheld from Dave by national SSN people.
D) I do not think so, this is not helpful, certainly one member of the NE SSN did help to set up the Tyneside support group (Not in SP/SWP).
E) THe 'Left' is Piss poor in the NE, it does next 2 nothing. It has made no alliances with any of the new social movements, it remains in its sterile old left party forms. Even the NESSN is the old left, but at least it is trying to do this with a fresh approach and keep the network independent. That is apart from the many independents who have seen through the party form, the Durham Miners and the Gala, and the anarchists who sometimes do good stuff.
F) Wishful thinking, this is the latest party proclamation from the central committee who are arguing this, which is being parrotted by the local apparatchiks.
G) Overall Dave Harker is right. The SWP produced a leaflet for the meetings for christs sake. It is amazing that the NESSN has united the SP/SWP in this 'campaign', however I would rather the effort was put into the class struggle. Yes, Left Unity were there (what 2/3 people) (the main figures certainly have had union money before and involved Trade Unions) and trying to be an independent unifying force. They certainly did not vote with the SP/SWP from what I remember. In reality that packed meeting was representative of not an independent Shop steward network, but loaded with the agenda of 2 hierarchical left groups.

It ALL is sad leftism, one side (Harker et al) trying to keep it independent, the other trying to get their agendas and leadership through. That meeting is part of the reason why the left is in a shit state, it was horrible to be there and watch the horrible debate. All the more strange when Yunus et al are attacking a member of his own party (Dowling), as part of the wider SWP factionalism and not serious independent working class politics. None of this helps the working class left.
 
Macullam;10022692][QUOTE=Rod Sleeves said:
You support a small group of members of an organisation ignoring constitutional and democratic structures to impose their will?

Joint reply to the report by Dave Harker, ex-Regional Secretary of the North East Shop Stewards' Network, by: Fran Heathcote, PCS DWP Group Organiser, NE DWP Regional Chair, Northern Region Vice Chair (all personal capacity) and Socialist Party member; and Elaine Brunskill, Socialist Party Northern Regional Secretary.

Over a period of time a growing number of those involved in the NESSN were becoming increasingly concerned about the bureaucratic, top-down style that was being adopted by Dave Harker, Regional Secretary of the NESSN.

A well publicized meeting 'Whither NESSN' was convened for the 19th November by the steering committee to deal with the differences that were clearly developing on how to take the NESSN forward. The majority of the meeting (16-6) voted against Dave Harker, seeing him as an obstacle to the future growth of the NESSN.

In Dave Harker's report he lists those with/without the right to vote. However, at the meeting the chair, Alan Docherty, made it clear he was allowing everyone there the right to vote. Nobody challenged this decision.

When a motion of 'no confidence in Dave Harker as regional secretary' was put forward by Elaine Brunskill, then seconded by Yunus Bakhsh, nobody challenged the right of these comrades to do so. If they had have been challenged for putting forward an 'illegal no confidence motion', there were plenty of others who had previously been abused by Dave Harker's dictatorial attitude present who were prepared to take up the challenge to Dave Harker.

Dave Harker has argued that the vote to remove him should have been deferred to the AGM in the spring of 2010, in order that the '111 with full (voting) rights' could be present. However, the majority of activists within the NESSN were fearful that the bureaucratic approach being adopted by Dave Harker would mean the NESSN would be wrecked by then.

Also, by mentioning the '111 with full rights', Dave Harker is suggesting that this number was likely to turn up. However, according to a report by Dave Harker emailed out on the 29th May 2008 the, 'NESSN’s first conference took place in Newcastle on 29 March 2008. It was attended by 24 people'. The report goes on to say another meeting on the 8th May 2008 was attended by 22 Networkers. Since those meetings numbers have dwindled. Only 19 at the last workshop, The AGM report for March 2009 shows only 18 present. The 'Wither NESSN' meeting held on November 19th had 23 present.

Dave Harker is critical of the National Shop Stewards Network being a voluntary body. The NSSN steering committee is a voluntary body. Dave Harker could have volunteered to go on, but chose not too. He could also have put forward a motion at the conference to have an elected steering committee, but did not do so.

Dave Harker then attacks the the National Shop Stewards Network as being dominated by one political group. In reality, the steering committee is elected yearly at well-attended conferences, all hold positions as reps in trade unions at various levels and in various
capacities. There is also a diverse range of political views

The assertion by Dave Harker that the NSSN is largely a paper organisation will no doubt anger many. The NSSN is a fledgling organisation, which will be tested in struggle. However, even at this early stage it is showing itself capable of assisting workers in their struggle against the bosses. In other areas SSN's were backing the occupations at Visteon, backing the Lindsey oil refinery construction workers, Postal strikers, etc.
Unfortunately, in the north-east the development of the NESSN was stunted due to the hierarchical methods adopted by Dave Harker. This top-down approach led to a sluggish response. For example, the NESSN did not organise any public meetings or support of postal workers in their recent strike action.

Dave Harker asserts that, 'The NE left as a whole has built nothing of any size that has lasted, for at least forty years.' As Dave Harker has not lived in the north-east for a number of years we feel it is disgraceful to make such a remark.

Many who have been involved on the left in the region will recall the tremendous support groups which sprung up to support the miners' during the mid-1980's. The anti-poll tax struggle attracted masses of workers and young people across the region. The support group for the sacked Magnet workers also played an important role. Across the region the anti-war movement attracted a new layer to class politics. More recently the Keep the Metro Public campaign has involved trade union members, community activists and socialists.

This remark also shows Dave Harker does not take cognisance of the political backdrop of the past twenty years. Internationally the collapse of Stalinism led to euphoria from the capitalist class who shouted from the roof top that their system was the only viable option. In Britain this lead to the transition of the Labour Party into New Labour – workers were left with no political representation. Right-wing trade union leaders argued that class struggle was outdated and the way forward for workers was to have partnerships with bosses. Against this onslaught the working class was pushed back and organisations representing the working class also suffered as a consequence. However, workers are now emerging from this period, and class-struggles again beginning to surface.

Dave Harker points out that comrades from two of the political groups present (SP and SWP) moved and seconded the vote of no confidence. Many activists at that meeting were astonished when, just before the vote took place, Dave Harker asserted that even if there was a vote of no confidence he would remain as the regional secretary – so much for the defender of democracy!.

This led to an amendment to the motion being put forward by Hannah Walter and seconded by Yunus Bakhsh that the existing elected members of the NESSN steering committee, bar Dave Harker, would meet in December to plan the AGM and organise the work of the NESSN. This amendment to the motion was passed 16-6. At this AGM the new Regional Secretary will be elected. This meeting will be advertised and give all members of the network a chance to vote for the secretary – all very democratic.

Dave Harker's report gives the impression that the meeting consisted of two left groups who lined up against a small number of individuals. In reality there were at least 3 political groups present: SP, SWP and Left Unity (which has nothing to do with Left Unity in PCS), Dave Harker is involved with this group, speaking at their public meeting. At the meeting Vicki Gilbert confirmed that Left Unity was an organised group with a steering committee. There were also some who were not part of any group – some voted for the amendment, some against.

Dave Harker alleges that attempts were made to bully him into supporting 'various front organisations'. The NESSN had made a decision not to publicize material from individual groups, the Socialist Party disagrees with this stance, have consistently argued against it, but have worked within the narrow parameters of the decision. However, under Dave Harker this policy was not applied evenly across the board.

The so called Left Unity group, which has no trade union backing has been given open access to the network. The CPB was allowed to advertise on the events list. Dave Harker argued it was the Morning Star's People's Press Printing Society pushing the meeting, not the CPB! We do not have a problem with these events being advertised, but cannot see why our events do not qualify.

In stark contrast Youth Fight For Jobs (YFFJ), which is supported by the RMT, PCS and CWU trade unions, was initially not allowed to advertise on the website – despite a statement from a regional RMT organiser confirming RMT backing. Our young comrade, who is doing a tremendous job building YFFJ, initially politely requested the inclusion of the event. When this was denied he was forced to circulate the whole network in order to push Dave Harker into advertising the event. He then received a typically high handed email response from Dave Harker, telling him to, 'dismount from your high horse until you have learned to ride it properly.' If the democratically adopted decision of the NESSN had have been properly applied, our young comrade would not have needed to circulate material.

This wasn't the first insulting email that Dave Harker had sent to this young comrade. Previously Dave Harker had criticised him for supposedly not understanding how to work in a United Front and patronisingly was told to in an email: 'Read some more! Maybe there should be, er, a united front meeting on this.'

In his report Dave Harker asserts that the discussion at the 'Wither NESSN' meeting was 'often incoherent'. We would argue that the discussion was extremely focused and coherent. The majority at the meeting wanted a change in direction from the overly bureaucratic approach of Dave Harker. We are now hopeful that the NESSN can now move forward and function as a combative organisation assisting workers in struggle.
Click to expand...
Has sw split yet?
 
You should know, having been in the party, that the split can't happen until Rees etc is humiliated and his faction disbanded after conference. So your hilariously repeated question is both nonsensical and dishonest. Not bad for something so insubstantial.
 
Rees has reportedly already been humiliated. If the faction created from the Left Platform group adopts Rees as their spokesman then they will lose and never be heard of again. The SWP will then probably continue to quietly fade away rather than do anything as noticeable as split.
 
could people try to refrain from the massive re-quoting...
Pick the pertinent points etc..

getting to be like the swoppy's, a lot of bluster and no substance
 
i don't think there will be a split. a few expulsions then rees and german keep their heads down for a bit and it blows over.

i do hope though, that enough members become aware of the leadership factions operational methods and the question of internal democracy does not go away.
 
The Black Hand;10024860][QUOTE=Macullam said:
A) Virtually if not totally all SP/SWP - it was a deliberately loaded meeting.
B) To vote in what, an extra/sub constitutional meeting?
C) I have heard info is being withheld from Dave by national SSN people.
D) I do not think so, this is not helpful, certainly one member of the NE SSN did help to set up the Tyneside support group (Not in SP/SWP).
E) THe 'Left' is Piss poor in the NE, it does next 2 nothing. It has made no alliances with any of the new social movements, it remains in its sterile old left party forms. Even the NESSN is the old left, but at least it is trying to do this with a fresh approach and keep the network independent. That is apart from the many independents who have seen through the party form, the Durham Miners and the Gala, and the anarchists who sometimes do good stuff.
F) Wishful thinking, this is the latest party proclamation from the central committee who are arguing this, which is being parrotted by the local apparatchiks.
G) Overall Dave Harker is right. The SWP produced a leaflet for the meetings for christs sake. It is amazing that the NESSN has united the SP/SWP in this 'campaign', however I would rather the effort was put into the class struggle. Yes, Left Unity were there (what 2/3 people) (the main figures certainly have had union money before and involved Trade Unions) and trying to be an independent unifying force. They certainly did not vote with the SP/SWP from what I remember. In reality that packed meeting was representative of not an independent Shop steward network, but loaded with the agenda of 2 hierarchical left groups.

It ALL is sad leftism, one side (Harker et al) trying to keep it independent, the other trying to get their agendas and leadership through. That meeting is part of the reason why the left is in a shit state, it was horrible to be there and watch the horrible debate. All the more strange when Yunus et al are attacking a member of his own party (Dowling), as part of the wider SWP factionalism and not serious independent working class politics. None of this helps the working class left.
Click to expand...


What made these independents see
through the party form, Durham Miners and the Gala, and the anarchists who sometimes do good stuff
Click to expand...
.?

I can understand why many may be unhappy with them all ( I certainly have reservations) , especially the level of disorganisation amongst the anarchists and their internal squabbles and factionalism but is it just general disillusionism or was there a catalyst?
 
However, according to a report by Dave Harker emailed out on the 29th May 2008 the, 'NESSN’s first conference took place in Newcastle on 29 March 2008. It was attended by 24 people'.
Click to expand...

In reality, the steering committee is elected yearly at well-attended conferences
Click to expand...

:confused:
 
it was this bit I found somewhat contradictory and confusing:

Macullam said:
Dave Harker is critical of the National Shop Stewards Network being a voluntary body. The NSSN steering committee is a voluntary body. Dave Harker could have volunteered to go on, but chose not too. He could also have put forward a motion at the conference to have an elected steering committee, but did not do so.

Dave Harker then attacks the the National Shop Stewards Network as being dominated by one political group. In reality, the steering committee is elected yearly at well-attended conferences,
Click to expand...

either its elected or its not, shorely
 
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