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CWI Split?

SpackleFrog what one 'thing' from your perspective is the 'Socialist Alternative' going to do that makes it distinguishable from the SP/the dying embers of other left groups outside of the LP? Serious question, because having ploughed through the interminable leaked papers I am genuinely struggling to see what it is.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
SpackleFrog what one 'thing' from your perspective is the 'Socialist Alternative' going to do that makes it distinguishable from the SP/the dying embers of other left groups outside of the LP? Serious question, because having ploughed through the interminable leaked papers I am genuinely struggling to see what it is.
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I mean I've been a member for a very long time and I think that as far as the Marxist left goes, the SP as part of the CWI is in my opinion the only healthy/semi-healthy thing going outside of the Labour Party. You may disagree of course but in that case it's unlikely my answer will satisfy you.

I do think it's interesting you speak of dieing embers outside the Labour Party though, because I see very little reason to expect that the Labour Party will continue to offer much of a home to the radical/Marxist/Socialist left in the future at this point in time. Consequently I think it quite likely that in some form or other there will be more potential for that left outside of the Labour Party in the next few years.
 
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SpackleFrog said:
I mean I've been a member for a very long time and I think that as far as the Marxist left goes, the SP as part of the CWI is in my opinion the only healthy/semi-healthy thing going outside of the Labour Party. You may disagree of course but in that case it's unlikely my answer will satisfy you.

I do think it's interesting you speak of dieing embers outside the Labour Party though, because I see very little reason to expect that the Labour Party will continue to offer much of a home to the radical/Marxist/Socialist left in the future at this point in time. Consequently I think it quite likely that in some form or other there will be more potential for that left outside of the Labour Party in the next few years.
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On your first para, unless I'm missing something, that's not an answer to my question!

I agree on your second point, in the sense that I believe the LP is an absolute dead end for anyone genuinely interested in transformational politics. But as things stand most pf the left has thrown their lot in with Corbyn or fellow travelled to the extent that the success of the top down Corbyn project is their prime focus.
 
SpackleFrog said:
I mean I've been a member for a very long time and I think that as far as the Marxist left goes, the SP as part of the CWI is in my opinion the only healthy/semi-healthy thing going outside of the Labour Party. You may disagree of course but in that case it's unlikely my answer will satisfy you.

I do think it's interesting you speak of dieing embers outside the Labour Party though, because I see very little reason to expect that the Labour Party will continue to offer much of a home to the radical/Marxist/Socialist left in the future at this point in time. Consequently I think it quite likely that in some form or other there will be more potential for that left outside of the Labour Party in the next few years.
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Not at all expecting a detailed reply, but just in your opinion, will the Irish 26 county section be able to pull through in one piece. Seems to have really gone to ground since the elections? which obviously is understandable, but the rumor mill is suggesting there will be a split. I remain unconvinced.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
On your first para, unless I'm missing something, that's not an answer to my question!

I agree on your second point, in the sense that I believe the LP is an absolute dead end for anyone genuinely interested in transformational politics. But as things stand most pf the left has thrown their lot in with Corbyn or fellow travelled to the extent that the success of the top down Corbyn project is their prime focus.
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I guess that's my point then, that broadly the SP's approach to Corbyn and Labour is in my view correct, we never threw all our eggs into the Corbyn basket, and that's partly why I believe there is potential for this 'new org' which will remain part of the CWI to develop and grow, although it remains to be seen. I'm not entirely convinced by the name but I understand it's a placeholder at least for now.

I think it's also relevant that the individuals involved in this are generally those elements of the SP more sceptical of Corbyn or at least wary of being seen to cheerlead for him.

I would say that the fact that this org will be able to point to sister parties around the world with strong track records of intervening and leading struggles very recently (US, Ireland, Hong Kong, Belgium, South Africa) can potentially provide a strong appeal. I don't know though really. I've joined it, sort of, or at least I will. I'm not sure there needed to be a rush to form a new org or leave the SP but there we are.

Limerick Red said:
Not at all expecting a detailed reply, but just in your opinion, will the Irish 26 county section be able to pull through in one piece. Seems to have really gone to ground since the elections? which obviously is understandable, but the rumor mill is suggesting there will be a split. I remain unconvinced.
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Very hard for me to say. I've heard lots of claims and counter claims from the factions. I think the majority of the section will remain intact though. Fortunately they've never been minded to make concessions to bourgeois nationalism though so they've got that going for them :thumbs:

Certainly I expect at least a handful of individuals to leave.
 
SpackleFrog said:
I mean I've been a member for a very long time and I think that as far as the Marxist left goes, the SP as part of the CWI is in my opinion the only healthy/semi-healthy thing going outside of the Labour Party. You may disagree of course but in that case it's unlikely my answer will satisfy you.

I do think it's interesting you speak of dieing embers outside the Labour Party though, because I see very little reason to expect that the Labour Party will continue to offer much of a home to the radical/Marxist/Socialist left in the future at this point in time. Consequently I think it quite likely that in some form or other there will be more potential for that left outside of the Labour Party in the next few years.
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More serious response....

I agree that the Left's days in the Labour Party are numbered, again.

But I don't see the SP (or any of the Trot remnants) picking up the pieces. There's just not the pole of attraction there, or the social infrastructure to build a periphery.

That's not unique to the Trots mind.

We're all stranded in that canoe.
 
chilango said:
More serious response....

I agree that the Left's days in the Labour Party are numbered, again.

But I don't see the SP (or any of the Trot remnants) picking up the pieces. There's just not the pole of attraction there, or the social infrastructure to build a periphery.

That's not unique to the Trots mind.

We're all stranded in that canoe.
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*shrug* I mean if this is gonna be one of those discussions...

The level of class struggle will increase generally, with or without the left and the unions. Those whose ideas aren't terrible and can talk to the working class without sounding like a twat will likely see their organisations grow as a result.
 
SpackleFrog said:
*shrug* I mean if this is gonna be one of those discussions...

The level of class struggle will increase generally, with or without the left and the unions. Those whose ideas aren't terrible and can talk to the working class without sounding like a twat will likely see their organisations grow as a result.
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It's a bit wearing having the same discussion over and over again.

Ever decreasing circles.

Sure, there's a good chance that you'll grow, a bit, post-Corbyn. You are pretty much the only game left in town after all. And a relatively sensible one too. I'd be delighted, despite my disagreements, to see a you build a healthy, viable left of Labour party.

Good luck in your new venture, genuinely.
 
...and I am interested to see how soon, and how credibly, the new group can pose a Left of Labour electoral option.

In tusc? Or something new?
 
chilango said:
It's a bit wearing having the same discussion over and over again.

Ever decreasing circles.

Sure, there's a good chance that you'll grow, a bit, post-Corbyn. You are pretty much the only game left in town after all. And a relatively sensible one too. I'd be delighted, despite my disagreements, to see a you build a healthy, viable left of Labour party.

Good luck in your new venture, genuinely.
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Thanks. I think that whether the circle is increasing or decreasing is a matter for debate though. I think the way that the Yellow Vest movement in France has developed could tell us quite a lot about how working class movements could potentially develop here.

chilango said:
...and I am interested to see how soon, and how credibly, the new group can pose a Left of Labour electoral option.

In tusc? Or something new?
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I think that's a very open question. The involvement of the RMT in TUSC is significant. I think it would be madness to form some new electoral coalition/front. I think this new organisation should participate in TUSC if and when it becomes neccessary to use TUSC again although at the moment the RMT are blocking standing against Labour and I don't see independent electoral politics as key right now - there is more value in attempting to shape the support for Corbyn that exists. That could change rapidly though.
 
Thanks SpackleFrog for the reply.

I could at this point make a sneering comment about the cobweb left etc but instead I’ll just say this. There is clearly a crisis of working class representation across communities that at present the left is not just failing to fill but under the collapsing corbyn project is actively now moving even further away from. The once much heralded momentum community project seems to have vanished after achieving precisely nothing.

I’m talking here about the type of community work that posters on here have called for and even engaged in. Dealing with immediate issues. Promoting self sufficiency and confidence in dealing with those problems. Politicising the community through activity in standing up for itself and demanding resources. An active process of listening to ordinary people etc etc.

I’ve scanned the papers of both sides of the SP battle and nether seems remotely interested in trying to pick that baton up. In fact it’s barely referenced
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Thanks SpackleFrog for the reply.

I could at this point make a sneering comment about the cobweb left etc but instead I’ll just say this. There is clearly a crisis of working class representation in working class communities that at present the left is not just failing to fill but under the collapsing corbyn project is actively moving even further away from.

I’m talking here about the type of community work that posters on here have called for and even engaged in. Dealing with immediate issues. Promoting self sufficiency and confidence in dealing with those problems. Politicising the community through activity in standing up for itself and demeaning resources etc etc.

I’ve scanned the papers of both sides of the SP battle and nether seems remotely interested in trying to pick that baton up. In fact it’s barely referenced
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I mean that's fair enough. The debate has been a bit macro level to be honest.

All I would say is that community and workplace organising does need individuals who know what's going on but it also needs to develop reasonably organically. And it will. In some areas, the stuff Acorn are doing on housing is a step in the right direction, for example. We're starting from a low level, everything that was learnt has been forgotten, and its more about nurturing the first green shoots than anything else.
 
The only serious left of Labour party in England is the Greens.

The choice is between joining the Greens and moving them to the left, or joining Labour and moving that to the left.

I don't see much potential in the Trot sects to be honest. Partly because so far they've found it more constructive to attack each other than to unite.
 
Limerick Red said:
Not at all expecting a detailed reply, but just in your opinion, will the Irish 26 county section be able to pull through in one piece. Seems to have really gone to ground since the elections? which obviously is understandable, but the rumor mill is suggesting there will be a split. I remain unconvinced.
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The Socialist Party in Ireland is organised on a 32 county basis.

As for 'gone to ground' - SP members were on the NASRA picket lines a few days ago - and SP members organised a march of 1500 in Cork against the closure of the mail centre.

It is also holiday time and many members, like me, are on hols.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Very hard for me to say. I've heard lots of claims and counter claims from the factions. I think the majority of the section will remain intact though. Fortunately they've never been minded to make concessions to bourgeois nationalism though so they've got that going for them :thumbs:

Certainly I expect at least a handful of individuals to leave.
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Literally a handful of members of the Irish séction of the CWI support Taaffe's new grouping. When the dust settles on all of this at least 90% of the Irish membership and probably more, will be part of the Taaffe-less CWI.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Not sure what names you would know but the youngest comrades on the SP exec committee and the International Secretariat committee weren't having it basically.
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Likely the youngest at I'll know of is SE but not sure she is EC anymote.
Most I know are up here in Scotland, Phil S. MD, DS.
And down south DG, SS, NM, HS, PC..
 
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flypanam said:
I think he is. Those names will come in a google search. And the politics forum is open to anyone to have a peep inside.
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And every single one of them is a public figure, even introduced in the press/media as a member. It is not the old MT any more where you used different names for writing articles any more. It isn't Petrograd 1917 anymore, though I know some of the SP still think it is.
 
vanya said:
The only serious left of Labour party in England is the Greens.

The choice is between joining the Greens and moving them to the left, or joining Labour and moving that to the left.

I don't see much potential in the Trot sects to be honest. Partly because so far they've found it more constructive to attack each other than to unite.
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Is this a serious post? The Greens?
 
CWI are in a b it of a mess in my union too. Their candidate for the Left Unity nomination for the General Secretary election has withdrawn her candidacy, It is rather hilarious given their behaviour in the AGS nomination process. And their complaints about votes being refused fails to include their attempt to hijack the LU meeting in Glasgow and try and replace the Convenor and then they did deny people their vote, which they seem to forget in theior oyjer para about votes being denied. They are thrashing around now failing like a fish out of water.... Pathetic to see

PCS Broad Left Network
 
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