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SWP expulsions and squabbles

eoin_k said:
Most and all are different words with distinct meanings. So, interpreted literally your post is just wrong.
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Yes, you're right. I missed that. See if I can get it right this time. To say "Most sensible people from the SWP are no longer in the SWP" implies that most people remaining n the SWP are not sensible unless more people have left the SWP than remain in it (which I don't think is the case) or that some non-sensible people have also left the SWP. Interpreting this literally is getting too complicated, so I give up on that, but the statement is still a booting.
 
Jean-Luc said:
Yes, you're right. I missed that. See if I can get it right this time. To say "Most sensible people from the SWP are no longer in the SWP" implies that most people remaining n the SWP are not sensible unless more people have left the SWP than remain in it (which I don't think is the case) or that some non-sensible people have also left the SWP. Interpreting this literally is getting too complicated, so I give up on that, but the statement is still a booting.
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The number of ex-swp is greater than the number of current swp as the swp have been shedding members for more than 30 years
 
Pickman's model said:
The number of ex-swp is greater than the number of current swp as the swp have been shedding members for more than 30 years
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To continue the logic-chopping, that could mean that there could still be a majority of sensible people in the SWP, but I'm not sure that was what the original statement was meant to convey. If it was, I will have to eat my hat.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
On the one hand questioning the theory of the leadership is questioning the very basis on which the party operates; as such it is a fundamental attack on the party. On the other, biting someones ear or sexually harassing someone needs to be set against the needs of the class; in these cases the need of the class to have good organisers/leaders if they are to fulfill their historic potential.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
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I think L M is operating at the level of deep undercover parody but I'm not sure.

Anyway, the logic in his post here is absolutely spot on. Hegel's critique of the concept of 'the beautiful soul' springs to mind.

But its clear to most people by now that the era of the Leninist party is well and truly over. Anselm Jappe, Moishe Postone and Gaspar Tamas have all made the same point in various ways: historically, Leninist state building projects have developed in parallel with the capitalist categories themselves - that far from challenging the capitalist categories Leninst parties replicate them. This isn't some inherent weakness due to fallible individuals at the helm ('the beautiful soul' thesis) but is a problem that goes to the very core of the capitalist cell form itself, the commodity.G Tamas's article here is a very straightfoward introduction to this critique. Tamas's political and philosophical origins are located in the 'Left communist' tradition, which may interest some people here, in terms of how he has developed it.

What is repugnant about the current SWP debacle is how it mirrors aspects of the Healy/WRP filth - Corin Redgrave's infamous 'if a rapist can build a party like ours with such success we need more rapists' (ear-biters, thugs, psychopaths, insert as appropriate).
 
bolshiebhoy said:
Aye and about 2 paragraphs in total about the politics of the split. This thread is quickly losing any use value it had.
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precisely. Ex-members or not, they seem incapable of understanding is not the criticisms of the SWP that we have a problem, it is a nonpolitical nature of those criticisms. The claims that they are a semi-religious sect, rather than a political party, with a consistent political viewpoint. It is the constant misrepresenting of the party position on things, ie state capitalism, rather than anti-imperialist position on Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan.

I have always had my own criticisms of the party. But I am unable to get into admission and discussion of where you agree with people, because the attacks are just so,,,,,,,,,,,, I am trying to think of the right phrase, and I guess strawman attacks. Exactly what they criticise the SWP for, they are guilty of themselves.



This is something, which the vast majority of the working class, and non-revolutionary politically aligned would recognise as being a two-way street. The SWP, and everyone else, seems to be misrepresenting the arguments of each other. Leading to a position where the Revolutionary (R) left, are constantly arguing amongst themselves, instead of engaging with the working class.


(R) Anybody who would like to see an end to capitalist mode of social organisation and a transition to a classless mode of social existence.left
 
frogwoman said:
Most sensible people from the SWP are no longer in the SWP
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I love this. 10 years ago, the argument was the same. The only sensible people, are the ones not in the SWP. It's kind of a self-fulfilling sectarian position. Worthy of any cult.

I'm no longer in the SWP. My position on the current SWP and the faction, on the POLITICS, is leaning towards the faction. But my agreement with probably the majority of here, that there is a problem of ossified leadership in the SWP, will not stop me pointing out when people are telling lies or giving gays lazy sectarian analysis.

Random points out correctly, that the article from Ireland can genuinely be interpreted in different ways, by different people. Absolutely agree with him. Absolutely can understand how random reads it the way he does. However, it is dishonest to suggest that was the position of the SWP, if the SWP even today categorically deny that interpretation.

This misrepresentation that some people whine about, is CLEARLY a two-way street. Both sides feel they are being misrepresented. Why is that?
 
Jean-Luc said:
I was thinking of this message in particular:
Interpreted literally, this means that there are no sensible people left in the SWP. That's a booting if ever there was.

Can I be let off eating my hat?
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the thing is, ON HERE, that isn't really a new position. For the past 10 years I've been a member on here, the only explanation of anybody being a member of the SWP has been that, they must be brainwashed, they must be idiots, or some other kind of argument along that line.

I have in the past, along time ago, bent over absolutely backwards to try and make sense of the criticisms, and try and form a common language for genuine honest discussion. It's impossible, it seems. Which led me to give up.
 
Jean-Luc said:
To continue the logic-chopping, that could mean that there could still be a majority of sensible people in the SWP, but I'm not sure that was what the original statement was meant to convey. If it was, I will have to eat my hat.
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don't worry, this misrepresenting of what you have said is something you will get used to on here. :D It's something that happens amongst all the left, however I think Pickman, butchers, violent panda do it on purpose. Just a heads up ;)

PS. Like you, I have also tried to take responsibility for any misunderstanding, but that doesn't appease them.
 
Sean Delaney said:
'You're a nasty piece of work aren't you?'

Completely unrelated, but if anyone needs cheering up, enjoy watching eddie mair absolutely annhialate boris johnson:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21916385#FBM216804
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thanks very much, I enjoyed that. HOWEVER if a whole bunch of people including Norman, Louis, frog etc don't wade in to you now whining about you taking the thread off topic, they are going to look a right bunch of hypocrites..

PS. I actually refute any claims that my challenging people misrepresenting the positions SWP members held over certain historical events, was ME taking the thread off topic.
 
J Ed said:
It's really horrid to read that and look at the date.

I am still very worried about how many people knew and how much they knew about the multiple attacks. Then I remember how similar things have happened in so many institutions and wonder about how many knew about those attacks too.

I'm beginning to think that there is something to 'rape culture'.

Either way, I despair of human beings sometimes.
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The unfortunate fact is that people of ill-intent will always be drawn toward any structures that have the possibility of giving them power over others. That the SWP has such people within its' ranks isn't surprising. That they have handled the exposure of such people so badly is.
 
andysays said:
Talking of misrepresentation and hypocrisy, as we were...
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I'm all ears Andy, how have I misrepresented. I honestly don't see much difference between what frog woman said there, and what people were saying 10 years ago.

I also think it is dishonest of you to selectively quote. I have just gone back and read what I said, and I clearly balanced that you have quoted, in the last line.
ResistanceMP3 said:
I love this. 10 years ago, the argument was the same. The only sensible people, are the ones not in the SWP. It's kind of a self-fulfilling sectarian position. Worthy of any cult.

I'm no longer in the SWP. My position on the current SWP and the faction, on the POLITICS, is leaning towards the faction. But my agreement with probably the majority of here, that there is a problem of ossified leadership in the SWP, will not stop me pointing out when people are telling lies or giving gays lazy sectarian analysis.

Random points out correctly, that the article from Ireland can genuinely be interpreted in different ways, by different people. Absolutely agree with him. Absolutely can understand how random reads it the way he does. However, it is dishonest to suggest that was the position of the SWP, if the SWP even today categorically deny that interpretation.

This misrepresentation that some people whine about, is CLEARLY a two-way street. Both sides feel they are being misrepresented. Why is that?
Click to expand...
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
don't worry, this misrepresenting of what you have said is something you will get used to on here. :D It's something that happens amongst all the left, however I think Pickman, butchers, violent panda do it on purpose. Just a heads up ;).
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Hmm, one of the reasons I continue to lurk around this thread is that most of those who post - and that includes those you mention - argue honestly held positions. You and bb don't, though bb has a different set of tricks to you.
 
Oisin123 said:
Hmm, one of the reasons I continue to lurk around this thread is that most of those who post - and that includes those you mention - argue honestly held positions. You and bb don't, though bb has a different set of tricks to you.
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Funny that innit, how the only people who you say are dishonest on this thread are the people defending the tradition you're a member of. Grow some honesty balls yourself and tell us all who you are. That would be 'epic' of you.
 
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