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SWP expulsions and squabbles

Something that was both a good idea in the abstract and which actually had at least some resonance at the time. The first part is often true, the second very rarely. There's an interesting document mentioned on the cedar lounge archive from an actual local trade union backed defence group, by the way.

As far as the SWP position goes, it was wrong and it's a bit embarrassing given their tendency to declare various issues linked to imperialism to be litmus tests for socialists, but I actually don't think it's something worth slagging them off about a trifling 44 years later. It was quite an understandable mistake to make, given that it reflected a widespread feeling at the time in Catholic working class areas.
wrong? I don't think the SWP would agree even today with you, with your point of view, that it was wrong. I will try and ask some of the older comrades.

That's not the point though, it's not about that issue, buit about what it says about the sort of leadership that they say that they necessarily - by their very existence - provide.
this is true. Do you trot out the socialist line whether you assess it is practical or not?

It would be much easier for a Leninist organisation to just trot out "workers militias", and stay within the fold of revolutionary politics. Not be castigated fellow revolutionaries, like they are being here, for betrayal of the "litmus tests". But here we had a leadership who was prepared to make an honest assessment, that workers militias were not practical. And that in lieu of them, British troops stopping the pogrom was better than hundreds dead.
In the rest of the articles though, in the vast majority of the articles, they make it clear that troops are not the solution. They make it clear what the problem is.
But at the end of the day, I am not really concerned about whether they are right and wrong, in this forum. I'm just trying to make one point, they were genuine socialists. They weren't doing this to recruit, they were arguing what they honestly believed to be in the best interests of the working class. Tony Cliff Duncan Hallas were seriously only considering recruitment?
Another point that is running through all these items raised, is the pragmatism. Time and time and time again when I was in the party, they were prepared to argue and debate as to how it was best to promote as much activity of the working class as possible (because ideas change in struggle). How to engage with the working class. This is one of the key features of Trotskyism.
It is these kinds of things, that do Mark out the International Socialist tendency, from many other organisations on the revolutionary left imho.
 
you seriously believe there was no difference in American military policy after the Vietnam debacle? You don't think the defeat had any effect whatsoever on the consciousness, mindset, of America?

Did I say there was "no difference"? Nope. :facepalm:

The sum of any difference in military policy boiled down to keeping a better lid on things, which was fairly easy once the draft was over and done with. Policy stayed pretty much the same, though - intervene wherever "reds" meant the US didn't receive the tribute it felt it deserved. In other words, "intervene wherever they wanted to".
 
Read the whole of Militant's coverage. Starting with the first sentence below the headline: Withdraw British Troops. It's pretty clear about its opposition to sending in the troops. The problem was not in the SWP pointing out some factual benefits of the troop's presence, but in the lack of a wider oppositional context. And that that was a deliberate decision, taken because of the popularity of the troops in Catholic working class areas, not an oversight. Not that I think it matters at 44 years remove.
sw quite clear say why the decision was taken "
"The breathing space provided by the presence of British troops is short but vital. Those who call for the immediate withdrawal of the troops before the men behind the barricades can defend themselves are inviting a pogrom which will hit first and hardest at socialists."
 
Did I say there was "no difference"? Nope. :facepalm:
I thought it was plain, I would be amazed if you did.

The sum of any difference in military policy boiled down to keeping a better lid on things, which was fairly easy once the draft was over and done with. Policy stayed pretty much the same, though - intervene wherever "reds" meant the US didn't receive the tribute it felt it deserved. In other words, "intervene wherever they wanted to".
so they carried on with the same policies, more efficiently? Are you saying, even if they had been victorious in Vietnam, they would have gone to this more efficient methodology anyway?

You don't think there was a gradual process, of trying to rehabilitate Vietnam style outright invasions, à la Iraq?

So when you say "didn't receive enough tribute", financial? It wasn't about smashing a competing model of social development, (something along the lines what Chomsky was arguing?)
 
Marx wrote: “Philosophers have explained the word. The point however is to change it.” Marxists are often accused by our opponents of being dogmatic and doctrinaire theorists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the point is to change the world then socialist theory must always be changed and updated in the light of experience. This is what Trotsky did and this is what Tony Cliff set out to do in this re-examination of Trotsky’s theory. :)
 
phew - some actual SWP news!

Various leading members of the Canadian IS have resigned.

Right so where were we folks, have I missed much :)

Ah yes Abbie Bakan. Who only last year was suggesting in rather dry academic - but reasonably clear - tones that the IS has a problem (a bad problem) with understanding feminism: http://www.socialiststudies.com/index.php/sss/article/viewFile/262/228
Least I think that's what she means by saying Cliff and German are guilty of an 'epistemological dissonance' with feminism. She was more explicit in her pressentation based on the same paper.



Apparently the problem with 'a certain brand of marxism' (no prizes for guessing which one) is that it encourages 'Man with Analysis' and 'Communist Urgent Man' who just doesn't have time for womens problems. Who knew. Not that 'Anarchist Action Man' eescapes criticism mind.

And I only mention the following because it seems to amuse/annoy people when I bring up Sheila Rowbotham. But who does Abbie quote to demonstrate that this blindspot in the IS is nothing new? You got it! But of course the newest exiles from the IS share nothing with previous socialist feminists. Those old arguments are dogmatic and modern feminism is completely sui generis as Seymour would say.
 
Marx wrote: “Philosophers have explained the word. The point however is to change it.” Marxists are often accused by our opponents of being dogmatic and doctrinaire theorists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the point is to change the world then socialist theory must always be changed and updated in the light of experience. This is what Trotsky did and this is what Tony Cliff set out to do in this re-examination of Trotsky’s theory. :)
And what can we learn from all this...?
 
They placed an awful lot of faith in the work of Michael Caldwell - who was a Khmer Rouge apologist right till he died. Quite possibly at the hands of the Khmer Rouge.

Going a little bit off-topic here, but it's kind of my hobby ...

From Caldwell's private notes given to Ben Kiernan (who was also denounced as pro-Pol Pot for his earlier involvement in an academic bulletin from Australia's Monash University named News from Kampuchea in the mid-1970s), it appears that while having sympathies he was fairly sceptical while on his visit to DK in December 1978, along with Richard Dudman and Elizabeth Becker.

EB+exhibition+5.jpg


He was most likely murdered by a RAK soldier/s, two days before the Vietnamese invasion. His positive work on DK (Cambodia: Rationale for a Rural Policy) was published posthumously. I've never read it though, so not sure if it's in a similar vein to Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution by Gareth Porter and George C. Hildebrand.

To be fair to the SWP (not something I say very often!) they weren't the only ones to have an initially mistaken view of the Khemer Rouge. Chomsky's writings at the time certainly raised my eyebrows when I read them.

It's understandable people on the left may have been skeptical when the first atrocity stories started to filter out. Western news reporting on South East Asia had been a model of lies, spin and propaganda against anti-imperial movements since the insurgency in Malaya in the 50's.

Plenty of others were suckered in, people of various political stripes who were a part of the western anti-war movement wanting the US out of ex-Indochina, but also members of small, western China-oriented parties. The Chinese were behind encouragement of the CPK to go public as a Marxist-Leninist party and government in 1977, and as a new war with Vietnam was looming, by 1978 there was a drive by DK to open up more and make better ties with the outside world, in order to gather support in the event of a new conflict. It will have been through fraternal relations that these tiny sects had with the CPC that saw invitations given out to go on Potemkin tours of DK.

One such sect was the Communist Party USA (Marxist-Leninist), which followed the CPC line at the time, with the Mao-Deng Three Worlds Theory and the Soviet Union being the main danger, the imperialist power on the rise etc. After the full horror of Pol Pot's regime became undeniable, the experience of finding out they'd been fed bullshit led to its young, middle class and idealistic members left hopeful by the Communist victories in 1975 becoming disillusioned and resigning, pretty much causing the collapse of the organisation. One of them (Daniel Burstein) is now a venture capitalist. Another former member (Carl Davidson) contacted me by email a couple of years ago after I reproduced the party's English translation of Pol Pot's crap, crudely Stalinist CPK congress speech from 1977 (when the existence of the Communist Party was revealed to the Cambodian people and the outside world):

Yes, it is the same Dan Burstein. And the correct name of our group then was simply Communist Party Marxist Leninist (CPML). When Burstein and the small group that visited Cambodia later discovered they had been mislead and lied to on their tour, it caused a crisis for them personally, and for our organization as well. Dan resigned his post, saying he was no longer a Marxist-Leninist--he was in his mid-20s at the time--and retreated into private life. Later he wrote books on Japanese economics and China for the business press, as well as other nonfiction works, and became a small-time venture capitalist. Dan's resignation started a process of liquidation within our group, and within a year, we were defunct.

I was editor of Class Struggle, our theoretical journal, and I made the decision to print Pol Pot's speech as an appendix in one of our last issues. I recall thinking that his politics were rather strange--calls for abolishing money, setting up communism immediately, etc--but since his thinking wasn't available anywhere else in English for people to study, I made it available, since he was the leader of a party that had taken power vs. the US imperialists.

I've mentioned this a few times to younger comrades and activists, to warn they [sic] against dogmatism and flunkeyism--and to take anything coming from any party regarding its achievements with a grain of salt.

Their booklet of the tour. Oh dear.

kampucheaface.jpg


kampucheafaceback.jpg


Earlier than that though, naivety and misunderstanding about Communist politics and how they played out during the wars was present. This ignorant student poster from the University of California, Berkeley, made an appearance back in 1975, but by the time of the Communist victories (two weeks apart) some of the CPK leadership (Pol Pot and friends) considered the Vietnamese to be irreconcilable enemies of their revolution.

supportgb.jpg

The person/s who made this poster weren't up to speed with the troubled relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties, perhaps relying on wartime information provided by Hanoi and the Chinese Communist press, emphasising solidarity between the national liberation forces, including glossy, English-language publications promoting the National United Front of Kampuchea (the French acronym being the slightly amusing FUNK).

Also, the poster uses the name Khmer Rouge to describe the Cambodians. CPK members didn't refer to themselves as such, it being a pejorative epithet used by Prince Norodom Sihanouk to inaccurately label his (intellectual and publicly active) leftist political opponents during the 1960s. Not all the people labelled as ‘Khmer Rouge’ were a part of the underground Communist movement at that time. The name stuck, however, to describe the Communists generally, this being in part due to its use by western journalists.

I think quite a lot of people will be feeling silly and ashamed in their old age.

That's it, I've bored you enough. I'm gone.
 
Never actually read any cliff stuff. what one book of his should i read?
His Russia: A Marxist Analysis (1964), where he sets out his theory of why Russia was state capitalist, is good. Reviewed here. He also wrote a book on Rosa Luxemburg. After these it was downhill all the way for him.
 
No disrespect, it just fascinates me how people can come to completely different conclusions from reading the same article. :)
Party loyalties can cause the truth to bend before your eyes. Just as you understand and support why the SWP supported a Labour vote in 1997 you understand and support why they welcomed troops in Ireland in 1969. Which leads you to even be happy to deny that they even did those things, because they didn't "really" do those things. Or if they did, they did it for the right reason. Or they did it with caveats. Or...
 
My site is long gone. Copyright problems/intellectual property issues, so got scared and pulled the plug. The ex-Commies were pretty cool about me reproducing their old stuff, though.
 
Marx wrote: “Philosophers have explained the word. The point however is to change it.” Marxists are often accused by our opponents of being dogmatic and doctrinaire theorists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the point is to change the world then socialist theory must always be changed and updated in the light of experience. This is what Trotsky did and this is what Tony Cliff set out to do in this re-examination of Trotsky’s theory. :)
There seems to be a typo in your edition of marx
 
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