editor
hiraethified
The death totals aren't meaningless though.
Sweden and coronavirus
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They're not, but they are, as ever, something to be treated with caution when making comparisons. Sweden's total includes deaths in care homes, for instance, where it's been particularly hard-hit.
The comparisons with other Nordic countries are not meaningless but they're also not the only comparisons that can be made. Overall, you would not say that Sweden is doing worse than the UK, for instance. Compared to the likely real figure for the UK, Sweden currently has half the number of deaths per head of population.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
The Swedish counterargument will no doubt be that the number of deaths can’t be judged until after the end of the pandemic, and that if they have higher deaths now, the other countries will “catch up” when they lift their lockdowns. Giesecke has made this point explicitly in YouTube interviews I’ve seen.
I’m not putting this forward as an explanation I buy into, so don’t shoot the messenger, just as the justification which the Swedish health authority is selling people. The truth will emerge in the fullness of time!
I’m not putting this forward as an explanation I buy into, so don’t shoot the messenger, just as the justification which the Swedish health authority is selling people. The truth will emerge in the fullness of time!
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
How very fucking convenient that we supposedly can't make a judgement until this crisis is over. What are the Swedish authorities planning in case it turns out that OOPS, their approach did lead to many more deaths? A shrug of the shoulders? Necromancy?
The death totals can be meaningless.
uk hasn’t been including care home deaths in death totals, thus rendering the death totals essentially meaningless.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They're not meaningless. You just have to be careful to ensure you know exactly what they include and what they omit when you look at them, particularly when you're making comparisons. One thing you very much cannot do is take a quick look down things like Worldometer or the John Hopkins thing and see how everyone's doing compared to one another. I was a bit guilty of that at the start and the media has been very guilty of it.
Yeah sure, you can ameliorate the lack of comparability
Don't you think it would have spread from town to town easier if Sweden had the population density of say Belgium?
2hats
Dust.
One thing is for certain: everyone alive today, in every country, will eventually die.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
Folkhälsomyndigheten have just been on the phone - they think you could be just the guy to help present their figures in the best way!
editor
hiraethified
There's barely a single country on the planet doing a worse job than the UK.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Borlänge: ”Vi har begravt dubbelt så många som vanligt”
BORLÄNGE. Dödssiffrorna skjuter i höjden i Borlänge. Orsaken är covid-19. Men de anhöriga har ofta inte fått veta vad mo
www.aftonbladet.se
A small town in Sweden sees a death rise of +340%
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Don't get me wrong. I wanted the Swedes to be right, I really did, but I'm not allowing that to make me cling to the belief that they are right. It looks increasingly like their strategy is based on a bunch of false assumptions taken from flu modelling. And that they are not worse than they are is almost certainly due to the fact that most Swedes are actually social distancing.
It is an example, if nothing else, that moderate social distancing is way better than no social distancing, which isn't a surprise. But their strategy is only worth it if they end up with population-wide protection at the end of it. Pinning their hopes on the majority of the population being effectively immune to catching the infection at all now - which could be true, but wasn't their original idea at all.
Was talking to a French friend yesterday. The French have also made a complete horlicks of this. There's an ongoing ppe scandal there involving government lies and they've been hopeless at setting up testing regimes. Total shambles there as well.
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editor
hiraethified
I completely agree with you. I wish that the Swedes had hit upon the magic formula too.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
This is pretty funny Swedish city to dump tonne of chicken manure in park to deter visitors
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
Funny as how fucking stupid Lunds Kommune and the police are.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
Anyway, it’s raining.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
There is no chicken shit.
The park is completely closed with security fences. All of the towns police are out guarding an empty park in the pissing rain as well as driving round looking for people partying in public. Which they’re not. There’s a global pandemic and it’s pissing with rain. Plenty of apartments having parties though. It’s not illegal so the police look as impotent as ever.
what those Swedish pigs would give to work in the UK or even Denmark where the extra powers provided by rushed through laws are guaranteed to give you an erection.
The park is completely closed with security fences. All of the towns police are out guarding an empty park in the pissing rain as well as driving round looking for people partying in public. Which they’re not. There’s a global pandemic and it’s pissing with rain. Plenty of apartments having parties though. It’s not illegal so the police look as impotent as ever.
what those Swedish pigs would give to work in the UK or even Denmark where the extra powers provided by rushed through laws are guaranteed to give you an erection.
Sorry but this statement is still jarring me slightly, partly because you didnt answer my question in post #160.
Can we assume that if half the amount of Swedens cases, that have happened in Stockholm, amount to half of the deaths in Sweden? (I cant find the actual data).
If that's the case, then Stockholm being a city of roughly 1M pop has about 1250 Death/1M pop. That's off the scale!
It's more than New York City at 1.1K and NYC has a population density twice as high as Stockholm.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
There is a Sweden specific tracker page on the arcGIS website, which is updated with data from folkhälsomyndigheten (Swedish public health authority). It’s in Swedish and I don’t see an English language option, but your browser may do that for you and in any case the meaning of the headings is probably clear from the context and the numbers displayed, but if you need any help figuring it out, let me know.
Edit: I’ll do some of the main ones...
Sjukdomsfall = confirmed cases
Intensivvårdade = ICU admissions
Avlidna = Deaths
Åldersgrupp = Age group
Kvinnor = Women
Män = men
Attachments
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You seem a bit fixated on population density. One of the most densely populated megacities in the world, Seoul, managed to contain then quash an outbreak of covid19. It's far from the only consideration here.
Most Swedes - 85% - live in towns or cities, a very similar figure to the rest of Europe. As for Stockholm's deaths, I don't know - I only saw the figure for cases, which you can find if you track the links through Worldometer to get to Sweden's health service page. It was a little under half, something like 8,000 out of 19,000. A figure of around 1,000 deaths per million for a city that is an infection hotspot isn't off the scale, though. It's about the same as the whole of New York State currently. The figure for London hospitals at the moment is 5,000, add at least 1,000 to that with care homes included (which is included in Stockholm's figures), so not far off 1,000 per million. Go to NHS England website for those figures.
There are lots of issues with comparisons where you can end up not comparing like with like. Comparisons between cities in which the virus was allowed to spread uncontrolled for a significant period before any kind of countermeasures were taken, like London, NYC and Stockholm, are perhaps better than many other comparisons. And not so surprisingly, they turn up similar kinds of figures.
ETA: My point anyway was to do with the overall population density of any given country not being that relevant, in fact being something that can lead you down the wrong path if you're not careful with it.
EETA: Also, I'm not saying I think that makes things ok! That London, New York and Stockholm (along with a bunch of other cities) are likely to end this first wave with death rates of more than 1,000 per million is an indication of failure in each of those places.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Bear in mind that it's not 'spreading uncontrolled' even there as lots of swedish people are staying at home and it already has the highest proportion of people working from home in the whole of Europe. Additionally, ppl over 70 have been advised to stay at home and limit social contacts
Its proper grim tho
Its proper grim tho
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. It was a couple of months ago, though, just like London and NYC. In all three places, the measures now in place came too late to save the cities from similar levels of widespread infection.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Is this only hospital deaths?
